Question for experienced pilots in the airlines......

Hi p i l o t 6 0 2

You figure of making less the $20,000 a year as a first officer is crap unless your a first officer for a small commuter with maybe two planes. I have never heard such an exageration of the truth. Maybe you make less than $20,000 as a CFI but definitely not a first officer. Also, I am tiring of the negative advice about entering the industry. Will all you people just pick your heads up, be optimistic, and network as much as you can. Any industry is rough but you have to be persistent in your goals. If you are looking at ERAU or DCA, I would suggest FIT aviation which has an aviation program (aero science, meter., management, safety) at Florida Institute of Technology. ERAU is definitely overrated and too damn expensive.

Chuck
 
[ QUOTE ]
You figure of making less the $20,000 a year as a first officer is crap unless your a first officer for a small commuter with maybe two planes. I have never heard such an exageration of the truth. Maybe you make less than $20,000 as a CFI but definitely not a first officer.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, actually under $20K seems to be the first year at most regionals now. (see below for sample table). It's not pretty out there presently.

From airlinepilotcentral.com


Rate Min Guar Yearly
Pinnacle $21/hr 75hrs/month = 18,900 yearly
Skyway $19/hr 75hrs/month = 17,100 yearly
Mid Atlic $21/hr 72hrs/month = 18,144 yearly
Colgan $20/hr 75hrs/month = 18,000 yearly
PSA $21/hr 75hrs/month = 18,900 yearly
Mesaba $24/hr 75hrs/month = 21,600 yearly
Air Wis $23/hr 75hrs/month = 20,700 yearly

The hours per month is the guarantee minimum. I wouldn't budget more then that a month. Extra hours would be fun money, NOT living money.

I don't like it, and hope it improves as I work towards entering this industry.
 
Ya, but you'll find that pilots don't just fly the mins, and you also have per diem pay which knocks that $18,500 pay up to around $20,000
 
That might be true, but I also don't think someone should think ok, I am going to make $25,000 that first year because I will be flying 90-100hrs per month and that per diem, let me go get that BMW like Kristie has! It's as reliable as a FORD!

I will ask, when a pilot is going for a home loan do they want your salary based on the min, or actually what you have been doing lately?

Also, lets hear from the first year FO out there! Whats it looking like on reserves and hours per month?

Thanks in advance.
 
When I was a newhire on reserve, I can remember one month where I made 115hours worth of pay. Flew around 95. I think first year before Taxes I made 24K or so.

Youre not going to get rich first year pay at any airline.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I absolutely love this field and hate people who are flying but think of it as a job and do not want to. It reminds me of teachers who get an education to teach and realize the low pay and then have the nerve to complain about what they make. Any input about the above would be greatly appreciated. Thank you


[/ QUOTE ]

Not to sound condescending meyers, but you're still too young and too inexperienced to fully grasp the full scope and reality of a career with the airlines or just a career in aviation. You're looking through a straw instead of taking in the full panoramic view. It's called youthful exuberance and there's nothing wrong with that. We all started out like that..really!
grin.gif
But, as I tell my 10 yr old daughter, "You don't even know what you don't even know yet". Don't worry, she doesn't know what that means either but in time she will.

I, along with the other pro pilots on the forum, have several big advantages over you. First, we've already been where you currently are and we are currently where you want to be . Secondly, for me anyway, I've been your age with your enthusiasm and the love of aviation, you've never been mine..yet. I've got a more panoramic view of the industry and the "shiny new jet" syndrome wore off a long time ago. Also, life tends to get a little more complicated the older you get with more responsibilities and priorities which start moving aviation further down the list of importance.

My brother wanted to be a doctor his whole life and currently is and a very good one. He grew up idolizing the pretend doctors on TV like Marcus Welby M.D. and Dr. Joe Gannon (Medical Center) in the 70's. He liked the bedside manner of these actors and the fast paced medical drama of each show. He truly believed this is what a doctor's life and the medical profession was all about. Funny thing, reality slapped him in the face. HMO's, insurance companies and medical malpractice suits weren't talked about much on those early TV shows but are a big part of the medical profession today. He found he was taking care of little old ladies with just the sniffles who really just wanted someone to talk to rather than being in dire need of medical assistance. It really began to dampen his enthusiasm of what a doctor's day is really like. My point is, that things changed for him as he got older and he stopped looking at the medical profession through a straw as he once had in his youth but saw the reality of the job and the complications which had nothing to do with practicing medicine. This is a lot like a career in aviation.

I sometimes just have to smile when I hear someone, especially someone who has never been in the profession say, "I absolutely love this field and hate people who are flying but think of it as a job and do not want to". First, it makes me fill good that with all the hardships in aviation there are still young folks with that burning desire to follow the "eye in the sky" path that many of us started on many many years ago. Conversely though, don't judge a person who has experienced the ups and downs of the profession until you've have flown many miles in his/her shoes.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Hi p i l o t 6 0 2

You figure of making less the $20,000 a year as a first officer is crap unless your a first officer for a small commuter with maybe two planes. I have never heard such an exageration of the truth. Maybe you make less than $20,000 as a CFI but definitely not a first officer. Also, I am tiring of the negative advice about entering the industry. Will all you people just pick your heads up, be optimistic, and network as much as you can. Any industry is rough but you have to be persistent in your goals. If you are looking at ERAU or DCA, I would suggest FIT aviation which has an aviation program (aero science, meter., management, safety) at Florida Institute of Technology. ERAU is definitely overrated and too damn expensive.

Chuck

[/ QUOTE ]

You have a lot to learn, my friend. Truthfully, I wish your comments were correct, as I would love them to be regards regional pay being higher. But the reality is different. I would hope that the industry "bar" can be raised to the optimistic level you speak of here.
 
[ QUOTE ]

However, I want to ask another question and that is if any of you have personal experience with a Embry Riddle or DCA?

[/ QUOTE ]

First hand experience with ERAU. This might make some people mad, but so be it. The Aeronautical Science program, at least back in the late 1980's was more or less high school math, "just show up and you'll get a grade" English and a bunch of filler classes like "Aircraft Systems and Components". The flight training was good, but at that time, academically, it wasn't challenging whatsoever.

After having completed the program there, I really didn't feel like I had went to college.

That's NOT to be read as an endorsement of any other collegiate aviation program.

[ QUOTE ]
I absolutely love this field and hate people who are flying but think of it as a job and do not want to.

[/ QUOTE ]

If we all worked 'for the love', we'd be the former Soviet Union. Every pilot loves flying but you haven't had the experience in which to realize that flying airplanes and being an airline pilot are mutually exclusive terms.

My best suggestion (well that's why you came right?
smile.gif
) would be to approach aviation with wide open eyes, open ears and try to absorb as much information as you can about the field. You're going to hear negative things, you're going to hear positive things, but they're all valid. A necessary.

There are days I wouldn't give this ride up for the world.

There are other days which I dream about learning I've won the lottery, leaving an idling MD-88 short of the 'dixie' taxiway in ATL, jumping the fence and hailing a cab.

There are good days, there are bad days, the road is a lot tougher than people will admit. But the idea that any profession is going to magically tie your life together in a wonderfully fulfilling package, it's not going to happen. As you get older (eek! I'm only 34 and already saying 'older') the important things like friends, family and living life become undeniably more important than things like "Ooh! I'm flying a CRJ-700!" or "Cool! 14 hour layover in Chicago!".
 
If you love it, do it, but make sure you know what "it" is. I still smirk when I walk out to preflight my big shiny silver eggbeater, and when I break out at 200 ft on an instrument approach to see a bunch of runway lights, I can't help but to think how cool it is. I love it and I won't try to squash your love for it.

But!... The next time you look at a jet flying over, consider that the crew is on the last leg of a 16hr duty day (of which 8 are paid), they get to see their wife/kids 3 days a week and their (my) last paycheck was $433. They wont see a weekend or holiday for 5 years, and live at least 3 states away from where they would like to live.

Flying regionals is still fun, cool, and I love it. I just about sport wood when I hear the Flight Attendant announce my name as part of the crew, and I know you will too. Just try to look at a slightly larger picture.

-Be sure to fly with several different instructors. Your 20yr exp friend my not have the best grasp on the latest equip/techniques, but the newby doesn't have 20yrs exp. Try to mix it up. Fly in busy airspace and keep challenging yourself. Don't get comfy in a small "non-tower" field.

(don't tow banners!- I did and geez that was horrible!)

-Plan financially! you may have to move several times, pay off training, not get paid during regional training, and first year pay sucks. Plan for it. Peanut butter and jelly gets old!

-Never think that you've arrived. I am a regional first officer which may sound cool to some, but I am just a baby in this biz and there will always be somebody with more experience that I (and you ) should shut up and learn something from.
don't shrug it off because it is not what you want to hear.

Keep at it because you love it. We have all been there.
 
[ QUOTE ]
It reminds me of teachers who get an education to teach and realize the low pay and then have the nerve to complain about what they make.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well that's a well thought, objective and reasoned piece of logic.

People have a right to complain about anything they want, especially when they feel undervalued. You do realize this board is filled with Certified Flight Instructors, don't you.
 
Probably the only problem with the notion of a guaranteed $20k is the fact that your first year you're not going to average 75 hrs/month because of training.

Dang, I can't believe in 2005 that we're fighting over how swell $20k/year is to fly a multi-million dollar jet...
 
[ QUOTE ]
People have a right to complain about anything they want, especially when they feel undervalued.

[/ QUOTE ]

They definately have that right, but it does take alot of nerve to get into a field that you know pays horribly, and then cry about it . . .
 
When I started to fly, I did it for fun and had no intention of an actual career in aviation. I had other goals and plans. Then when I returned to college I decided that I would give it a shot - why not try to make a career out of doing that I loved and enjoyed. That carried me for a long time, but as I got a few years older and had some experience in the industry (especially in some 'lower tier' flying jobs) I now find that the pure enjoyjment of flying is now diverging from the aviation career aspect. That is, as much as I love flying at my job, it is still a job and the pure excitement of flying is no longer directly associated with the career.

I now approach the career aspect differently than I did when I started. I still love flying, but satisfying my long-term job-related goals includes greater challenges and responsiblities, better money and schedule, and possibly more sophisticated aircraft and operations. I approach these things as "career-building" goals that are general in nature - they could apply to work any industry. I do my share of networking and my flying background is diverse enough where I am prepared to roll with the punches of this unstable industry.

On the flip side, my fun/personal flying goals involve grass strips, tailwheels, floats, and savoring good VFR (when I get the time and money......).

For anybody who is excited about the prospect of "getting paid to fly" as a full-time career occupation, I would caution them that the "job" aspect will take on a different and more important role than it did when they started out (or BEFORE they started out).
 
[ QUOTE ]
I'll venture to say NO CFI's at Riddle, FSA, or DCA have 20 years in the biz.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just wanted to correct a previous statement. I know a former FSA student and later instructor many years back who just went from USAir 737 captain to 757/767 captain. Given USAir's current situation I would say your statement is incorrect. Not to mention she was a former Piedmont 737 pilot.

I generally agree with most of your comments but geez Don your vendetta against FSA is getting a little rediculous. Do you have a FSA doll or something at home.
 
I'm not sure you were getting my point. I went back and read what I wrote and I think the context is clear. The guy was saying he was working with a CFI who had been a pilot for 20 years. My point is that it's impossible to find a CFI at an academy who has such a background. It's not like they grow on trees at smaller flight schools or FBO's, either, but they are out there if you look hard enough. Someone else made the point that working with a variety of CFI's is best. I'd agree with that. I just think a lot of these academies inbreed their own CFI's who don't have a lot of experience "outside the box".

I think what you think I was saying was that nobody from the academies has been in the "biz" for 20 years. Didn't mean that at all. It would be hard for me to say that seeing as how I graduated from Riddle in 81. I just think you were missin' my point. Apologies if I wasn't clear.

My vendetta's are against 300 hour jet airline F/O's, big academy marketing practices, PFJ, and scabs.

I like your doll idea, though....
 
[ QUOTE ]
My vendetta's are against 300 hour jet airline F/O's . . .

[/ QUOTE ]Ohhhhh, but I haven't learned anything as a flight instructor!
sarcasm.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
My vendetta's are against 300 hour jet airline F/O's, big academy marketing practices, PFJ, and scabs.

I like your doll idea, though....

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I'd say we are in complete agreement! But I'm guessing you already knew that.
cool.gif
 
Huh. How can you say that you love to do something ... when you haven't even done it? Not even come close...

I held off from becoming a pilot for years. Never wanted to be one. Still not sure why I'm sitting in the left seat of an RJ. I do know that, just a scant 15 years ago, planes the size of mine were flown at mainline carriers for mainline wages.

Back to the subject. You're getting the degrees, which is VERY smart. You're not skipping college and going straight from high school to SJS sufferer. This means you have plenty of time to realize that this career is not what it's cracked up to be. I've spoken with at least 5 major airline pilots in the last two weeks who all say that, given the chance to do it again, they wouldn't. Heck I had a UAL pilot in my jumpseat last week who's pedalling as fast as he can to get OUT of aviation. He's about 45. Makes sense to me!

The job isn't what it used to be. Passenger airline management teams no longer focus on providing a quality product; instead they're all looking for market share. When they travel, it's not in the last row of an ERJ or CRJ next to the stinky lav. They travel in bizjets. To say they're simply out of touch with the reality they've created is to give them too much credit.

In turn, passengers are not what they used to be. I try to help my FA (or FAs) clean the cabin after every flight. You would not believe how much trash they leave behind and how poorly they treat the aircraft (and the flight attendants!). We even had some young jackarse tonight get ticked because we don't show movies on our 55 minute flight. Hello?!

Is the job worth it? No. Am I glad I've done what I have thus far? Yes, because it has provided me with the ability to grow as a person in many ways, and to see many more parts of this country than I ever wanted. Oh, it's also fun to shoot a space-shuttle visual into DTW at night.
smile.gif
Would I recommend this job to anyone? Nope. Do I want out? Yeup. The sacrifices you will make are no longer balanced by the compensation you'll receive.

Sorry to post what you didn't want to hear ... but you need to hear it. A healthy dose of reality is always good for us all.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top