Question about slips

tgrayson said:
Worst case scenario is a slipping turn, where you may be varying your bank angle between 20-45 degrees to ensure proper alignment to final. You'll need to constantly adjust your pitch attitude to maintain the same airspeed.
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Ok, we are referring to two different things. I am talking stabilized, you are considering a constant change. Stabilized at any given pitch/bank/power setting gives a certain airspeed. If you can judge and perform that same pitch/bank with outside ref you will always yield the same airspeed.

I also assumed power to be constant, should have said that.

Me personally, I stabilize with a power, pitch (bank too in the case of a slip), and configuration then verify safe airspeed. After that my ASI is secondary unless I make some other change.
 
shdw said:
...a slip stall will be the most boring, docile, stall you will ever experience. Skids will kill you, slips are stable.
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Actually in a 172 in that cross-controlled stall you described, you can blank the tail surfaces and get a tailplane buffet going, so not quite docile.
 
shdw said:
If you can judge and perform that same pitch/bank with outside ref you will always yield the same airspeed.
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And same weight, configuration, airplane, etc. Yes, all things being equal, the pitch attitude gives some indication of AoA, which is why I said "limited" information regarding AoA.

But things are rarely equal and it's not a good idea to instill the attitude that pitch=AoA. Remember one of the contributing factors usually cited for cross-controlled stalls is that the pilot is disturbed by the nose down attitude produced by inside rudder and pulls the nose up to get what he considers to be a proper pitch attitude. Had he focused on airspeed, this wouldn't have happened.

(And why would you be carrying power in a forward slip?)
 
primate said:
Actually in a 172 in that cross-controlled stall you described, you can blank the tail surfaces and get a tailplane buffet going, so not quite docile.
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Yes, and hold the pitch. You'll buffet all day while sinking at a thousand feet a minute fully stalled in a perfect slip. That is docile when you compare it to rolling on your back in a skidding turn or a wing drop from various other stall entries. Point is, the wing won't drop, at least not in any trainer I have ever flown.

I generally demo that in a 152/172 for 2,000 feet of altitude. We climb to 4,000 and slip it right down to 2,000 fully stalled, violently buffeting the whole time but never breaking the slip. Holding full rudder, full elevator and various aileron input to keep it straight. I typically do power idle though.
 
tgrayson said:
Had he focused on airspeed, this wouldn't have happened.

(And why would you be carrying power in a forward slip?)
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Had he/she used rudder properly it wouldn't have happened either.

I was referring to power for other applications in the "all things equal" column. That's why I said, "(bank too in the case of a slip)" in parenthesis. Just being more general, not considering just a slip situation.

Edit: Thanks for this btw: "disturbed by the nose down attitude produced by inside rudder and pulls the nose up to get what he considers to be a proper pitch attitude." That set off a light bulb for this accident chain that I previously over looked.
 
this all got WAY too intellectual....

go feel it. fly by the feel. you can feel what the plane is wanting to do, versus what you want it to do. adjust accordingly, know the limits by feel.

(note: we are talking about a cessna here... i am not advocating flying by blind 'feel' in a turbine/jet/etc)
 
tgrayson said:
You're right, the pilot deserves to die.:rolleyes:
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My point is there is an earlier link in the accident chain. There is no reason any pilot should ever, unknowingly, be in an uncoordinated turn. Especially if they know how to feel what the aircraft is doing.

TX: I agree. I was attempting to explain how you can learn to "feel it" or fly by the seat of your pants. Flying by the seat of your pants is a combination of all senses and learning to use them together to accurately assess the situation you are in. Just like you cross check the instruments in IMC, you cross check your senses in basic VFR. As I suspect you already know/understand.
 
As TX said, go fly the thing at altitude and see what it does. This is a total non-issue. You don't even need an airspeed indicator in a light single, or, frankly, a king air if you have a clue what you're doing (Obviously Day VFR, and I wouldn't jump in an MU-2 without one under any circumstances). You wonder how Orville and Wilbur ever managed without an FMS.
 
shdw said:
My point is there is an earlier link in the accident chain. There is no reason any pilot should ever, unknowingly, be in an uncoordinated turn. Especially if they know how to feel what the aircraft is doing.

TX: I agree. I was attempting to explain how you can learn to "feel it" or fly by the seat of your pants. Flying by the seat of your pants is a combination of all senses and learning to use them together to accurately assess the situation you are in. Just like you cross check the instruments in IMC, you cross check your senses in basic VFR. As I suspect you already know/understand.
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i guess what im saying is, ive never broken it down that far... id be hard up to explain "okay, when i sense my butt is moving like this, then i apply this control input and adjust power like so..."

id have to have an outside observer watch me and then transcribe what im doing, it doesnt get that high-level thinking from me when im doing it...

especially flying acro... shoot, i would get done with a sequence and be left thinking "okay, uhm, im done....?"....talk about IN THE ZONE! haha
 
BaronPete said:
Problem. The aircraft is a C150. Intentional spins prohibited per an AD. The kit may or may not have been installed, not sure.



Ya, speeds are out the window, though.



Ditto from above, I was acting as though little attention would be paid to the airspeed indicator during the maneuver until bringing the aircraft back into trim.
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This AD MUST be complied with in one of two ways. Either the kit is installed (easy to tell as the rudder stops are much larger), or there is a placard installed prohibiting the airplane from intentional spins. There should be no doubt in your mind which it is. If it has neither the airplane is not airworthy and does not comply with its airworthiness release.
 
TXaviator said:
it doesnt get that high-level thinking from me when im doing it...
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I spent the last year studying it, reading about it, applying it, and trying to figure out how to teach it. Otherwise I would be in the same boat as you. But it really is so simple to teach because it is all stuff you experience every day. Most of it while driving/riding in a car. People are comfortable with uncoordinated turns (kinesthetically), I think, because they do them in their daily activity in any ground vehicle.

Ever notice a first time pilot always descends while turning? If you don't tell them to pull back that is, just let them turn. They are keeping 1G on their butt, that is what they know.
 
subpilot said:
You are dangerously incorrect. A spin develops when a stall occurs and the airplane in uncoordinated, for example...during a slip. Being out of trim has no effect on whether the plane will spin or not.
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By being out of trim, I meant uncoordinated flight. Difference in semantics, I suppose.

Thanks, though.
 
Blackhawk said:
This AD MUST be complied with in one of two ways. Either the kit is installed (easy to tell as the rudder stops are much larger), or there is a placard installed prohibiting the airplane from intentional spins. There should be no doubt in your mind which it is. If it has neither the airplane is not airworthy and does not comply with its airworthiness release.
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I suppose I should have clarified. Intentional spins are not allowed PER a placard not only inside the cockpit, but all over the books associated with said airplane. I simply mentioned that it's been a week or so since I've flown the plane, so I'm not sure if the kit has been installed yet.
 
Step 1: Get this book

http://www.amazon.com/Emergency-Maneuver-Training-Controlling-Airplane/dp/1879425920/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1263588444&sr=8-1

Or this book
http://www.amazon.com/Light-Airplane-Pilots-Guide-Awareness/dp/1879425432

(You can get both of them cheaper on his website, dvd's not necessary, they will try to sell packages, but click on 'books' and you should be able to get both books for around $60 http://www.richstowell.com/ )

Step 2: Read thoroughly
Step 3: Find a CFI who teaches emergency maneuvers and fly.

Best thing you can ever do as a private pilot is understand this stuff inside and out. These books, and practicing with a competent CFI who specializes in this stuff is your solution. Honestly, these books and flying the maneuvers changed flying for me and made me a much safer, more competent pilot.
 
subpilot said:
You are dangerously incorrect. A spin develops when a stall occurs and the airplane in uncoordinated, for example...during a slip. Being out of trim has no effect on whether the plane will spin or not.
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I just noticed this now, apologies for taking so long to comment. Anyways, a spin doesn't always develop in a slip because both wings must be stalled. It is possible, in a slip, to have one wing stalled while the other wing remains unstalled and is common in trainers.

Try the scenario I gave in the post after your post for a demonstration on this. You even get a nice buffed with that demo, whether that is the tail or the wing is arguable. You will not spin though. At least I never did, I have demoed it probably 50 or so times and done it solo another 10-20 times.

I don't know all the reasons it doesn't spin, it just doesn't. Maybe someone else can shed some light on aerodynamics that might prevent spin entry in that demo. I can only speculate.

Remember, a spin requires both wings to be completely stalled. If one wing is even a half a degree AOA under stall you cannot spin. Spiral yes, spin no.



TLD: I second the EMT (first) book. Great read and NO MATH for those that want to understand aerodynamics but hate the numbers. He mentions one formula then tells you to forget about it.
 
subpilot said:
FWIW, I was referring to the out of trim comment on that reply.
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You and I are on the same page, I just should have said uncoordinated flight as opposed to out of trim. My instructor, for whatever reason, has always referenced flying uncoordinated as being "out of trim." Nothing to do with the trim tab.

Sorry again for the confusion, you don't have worry about me trying to recover from a spin with the trim tab :crazy:.
 
BaronPete said:
You and I are on the same page, I just should have said uncoordinated flight as opposed to out of trim. My instructor, for whatever reason, has always referenced flying uncoordinated as being "out of trim." Nothing to do with the trim tab.

Sorry again for the confusion, you don't have worry about me trying to recover from a spin with the trim tab :crazy:.
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Do you have rudder trim on your 150? :laff:
 
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