Question about logging right seat King Air time

Part 91 I would be careful of, 135 well.....

I fly a B100 and was told by FSDO 21 to log all my time. I received ground (48+ hrs) on systems and ops specs & flight training then took the required 135.293 SIC check ride with the FAA. The ride was composed of a 3.5 hr oral on systems and ops then a 1.5 flt from the right seat. Engine failure on take off, single engine landing, holds, single engine ils, loc, vor, unusual attitudes, stalls, steep turns, and crm. In order to sign for the plane our insurance requires a certain amount of pic experience (100hrs I think) and this must be gained some way.

The initial 20hrs was all flown from the right seat dual received. I took the check ride at 14 hrs or so. After the 20 hrs initial experience we now swap legs and I log pic while I fly and sic when in the right seat. Just because your have the ops spec A015 you are not required to utilize it. Further more our FSDO does not require but PREFERS two pilot operations in the King Air.

FYI - note no auto pilot use was checked during my check ride so I am not authorized to fly single pilot 135. You must be signed off on your 135.293 to use the auto pilot in lew of a second in command.

Also being a 135 guy I am required to take IPC rides every 6mo, and we use the FSDO for this. I am also required to take the recurrency training every 12 mo, quite different than trying to log 91 time.
 
C310 it sounds like your company has provisions in its opspec to us an SIC. When I flew freight that is how my company allowed me to log SIC in a single pilot airplane. Our opspec required a SIC. I then logged our 91 repo legs as PIC since I met the FAA requirements for doing so

The King air is great airplane to learn in. It is has faster approach speeds similar to what you will see in a jet and you will get an introduction to the flight levels. Just becareful if your GPS is mounted betweent the seats in the center console. There have been a couple of accidents because of that GPS placement.

Doug, is right your time may or may not be considered by the airlines. Some airlines will count it and other will say it doesn't count and have you pull it out of your times. Be sure to read carefully the application. A lot will say you may only show PIC time in which you signed for the aircraft. This differs from the FAA defination of PIC.
 
skydog said:
Several years ago I had the opportunity to fly a Northwest Airlines DC9 flight simulator with an authorized instructor. I spent about half an hour in it. By all rights I could have put that time in my book. However, I did not, because I knew this was not a training session. I could not have answered a single technical question about the DC9 correctly. We were just having a little bit of fun.

Part of being a professional is upholding professional standards. Logging time in an airplane you have no ongoing and/or professional association with is, in my opinion, not appropriate.
Click to expand...

You seriously think that if you'd logged 30 minutes in a DC-9 sim. that in an interview the interviewer would a) expect you to know all the systems and b) saying anything other than "that must have been neat".

I swear - how some of you people can check the "no history of mental illness" on your medical application with a straight face is beyond me.
 
I have MD-11 sim time from a FedEx tour I did when I was in college. I didn't log it as PIC or toward my total time though. I was only a student pilot at the time. I put it in my logbook for memory and motivations sake. I haven't had a problem with it so far.
 
I have to play devil's advocate on this one, for I'm not exactly clear about legal and the perception of ethical. I'll also try to impart some PFT into the equation.

skydog]Part of being a professional is upholding professional standards. Logging time in an airplane you have no ongoing and/or professional association with is said:
Fair enough. In fact, although I probably didn't come across like this in my first post, I completely agree with you.

I was just trying to make the point that there is nothing illegal about logging the time. There is the "traditional" definition of PIC time, which you were stressing (and most interviewers probably use), and there is the "legal" definition of PIC time, which I was stressing.

If it were me, I'd probably log the King Air time as dual received, with no PIC, and chalk it up to a learning experience. It still counts for total time and multi time, even if it's not PIC. I don't think anybody could criticize doing it that way.
Click to expand...

jrh,

Again, playing devil's advocate, I'd not criticize you for not logging the PIC, but I would question you directly why you chose NOT to log PIC time. I do believe there's a subjective level of PIC/DUAL hours which would probably raise an eyebrow to an interviewer and force questions similar to Doug's, but again, if those questions could be satisfactorily answered, does not appear to be padding, etc., then would there be a problem?
 
MFT1Air said:
jrh,

Again, playing devil's advocate, I'd not criticize you for not logging the PIC, but I would question you directly why you chose NOT to log PIC time. I do believe there's a subjective level of PIC/DUAL hours which would probably raise an eyebrow to an interviewer and force questions similar to Doug's, but again, if those questions could be satisfactorily answered, does not appear to be padding, etc., then would there be a problem?
Click to expand...

I wouldn't log PIC because I wouldn't want there to be any question over it. Logging PIC would do nothing except open myself up for problems during an interview.

One problem is that the interviewer could start hammering me with systems questions I wasn't prepared for and I'd end up looking like a goof.

Another problem would come if the interviewer happened to be somebody like Skydog who doesn't believe in logging PIC unless they're the final authority for the flight. It doesn't matter if the interviewer is right or wrong, legal or illegal in their view of PIC time...at the end of the day, they're the one who decides if I get the job or not, so I better do what it takes to keep them happy.

And as I said before, it's still loggable as total time and multi time, so it's not like it's a complete waste of flying. It's just that logging PIC time, although 100% legal, could create more headaches than it's worth at a later date.
 
CFIse said:
You seriously think that if you'd logged 30 minutes in a DC-9 sim. that in an interview the interviewer would a) expect you to know all the systems and b) saying anything other than "that must have been neat".

I swear - how some of you people can check the "no history of mental illness" on your medical application with a straight face is beyond me.
Click to expand...

Classy response, but I think you're missing the point a little. I'd agree that it's incredibly unlikely that anyone would question .5 of DC-9 sim time in an interview, but the point is that it's just goofing off in a sim. But it's so far from real-world experience that putting it in your logbook as time is--while legal--pointless, because it doesn't really contribute to your abilities and experience as a pilot.

Believe it or not, there are pilots who think that a logbook should reflect your actual experience and that logging every .1hr that is allowed per FAR's isn't necessarily the best thing to do.
 
I have 150 hours in the right seat of a King Air 200 that I was a copilot in for 8 months under Part 91. I flew for a corporation. I have have a log of all of it. I can't coun't it as SIC or any required crew member, but I was there and did everything an SIC would do. I didn't have intimate knowledge of every single rivet on the airplane but I did study the manual. I knew the engines and and understood the basics of the hydraulic system. I could tell you back then that there was a back-up for the prop governor and that if the prop blades became stuck in a fixed position that the fuel-topping governor would control rpm. I knew the emergency action items and would have gone to sim school if I had stayed at the company and been hired full-time. My experience there helped me tremendously when I went through Skyway's Beech 1900 initial training, however I would never try to pass off that experience as something it's not. I tell everyone that asks that the FAA didn't require me to be there, but the insurance company did and that I wasn't a passenger. All of the pilots at this corp flew a Citation also and didn't treat the right seater in the King Air as a "passenger".

My advice to anyone that has an opportunity like this is to keep a log of it, but realize that it's not flight time that the FAA recognizes for any training or currency requirements. Some companies will count that as experience. Some will not. In reality the only way to know for sure if someone received any experience from that kind of operation is to see proof that they went through a training program or for the interviewers to know the situation. Kinda tricky...
 
jrh said:
I wouldn't log PIC because I wouldn't want there to be any question over it. Logging PIC would do nothing except open myself up for problems during an interview.

One problem is that the interviewer could start hammering me with systems questions I wasn't prepared for and I'd end up looking like a goof.

Another problem would come if the interviewer happened to be somebody like Skydog who doesn't believe in logging PIC unless they're the final authority for the flight. It doesn't matter if the interviewer is right or wrong, legal or illegal in their view of PIC time...at the end of the day, they're the one who decides if I get the job or not, so I better do what it takes to keep them happy.

And as I said before, it's still loggable as total time and multi time, so it's not like it's a complete waste of flying. It's just that logging PIC time, although 100% legal, could create more headaches than it's worth at a later date.
Click to expand...


I understand completely. Thanks for that insight. Falls in line with Doug's perspective. So, your log book has turbine time, multi-time, dual. . .when appropriate, and PIC only after discussion with the MEI detailing who is the PIC which I believe meets with concurrence from the owner, MEI, etc. etc.?
 
Ok after reading a few of the posts here, Basically if you are CMEL with a HP/HA edorsement, flying right seat in a King Air B100/B200 you can fly the empty legs and log that as PIC. The legs where there are paying passengers on board you don't fly the airplane and you don't log that time as SIC or anything, You are just basically riding shotgun at that point. So smart thing to do would be to get as much instruction on systems and such and fly all the empty legs!!!! This is the bottom to this issue right?
 
Where on earth did you dig this thread up? It's literally 5 years old. I think the OP has probably found his answer :)
 
lol yea good point. I was thinking about it since I am flying right seat tomorrow in a B100 and google brought this up. I never even looked at the dates lol
 
Nick2024 said:
Ok after reading a few of the posts here, Basically if you are CMEL with a HP/HA edorsement, flying right seat in a King Air B100/B200 you can fly the empty legs and log that as PIC. The legs where there are paying passengers on board you don't fly the airplane and you don't log that time as SIC or anything, You are just basically riding shotgun at that point. So smart thing to do would be to get as much instruction on systems and such and fly all the empty legs!!!! This is the bottom to this issue right?
Click to expand...
Crazy necro haha.

When Part 91 you can log PIC as Sole Manipulator of the flight controls with people in the back or not. Doesn't matter. When Part 135 empty Part 91 legs are logable.You do not need any endorsements of any kind to log PIC. You just need to be rated for the aircraft. In the case of a king Air 100/200 you only need some form of ME land certificate. It is still true that employers can ask you questions about the king air systems.
 
P&H I would be curious how this king air time played out in your aviation career. Any good stories? Right seat king air usually opens doors to good things.
 
Endorsements don't matter for sole manip PIC. Category, class and type if applicable. That's it.


This post brought to you by beta from my iPhone.
 
Just my two cents. I worked as almost five years as a Chief Pilot and now I instruct for my current company. Good deal if you can get it, but don't hang your resume on it. I have seen a lot of guys that have "padded" their resume with right seat time in a turbo prop, and it is inherently obvious during training that they may have logged the time, but lack the PIC experience especially when it comes to Decision Making and SA.
 
mjg407 said:
Just my two cents. I worked as almost five years as a Chief Pilot and now I instruct for my current company. Good deal if you can get it, but don't hang your resume on it. I have seen a lot of guys that have "padded" their resume with right seat time in a turbo prop, and it is inherently obvious during training that they may have logged the time, but lack the PIC experience especially when it comes to Decision Making and SA.
Click to expand...


Great two cents worth thats for sure. I make sure every flight I am on I learn something new about the aircraft.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top