Question about logging dual time

SilkyD

SilkyD

Well-Known Member
Hey guys,

I just have a quick question about logging dual time. I just got checked out as a renter at a local flight school. A buddy of mine who has a PPL has been a member of that flight school for some time and I recently got checked out so we could do some flying together.
Now, my question is when I do fly with him, can I log the time as dual. Just to clarify, I am a CFI. The reason I ask is that if I'm not a CFI at that school, are there any legality/liability issues of logging the time as dual when we're flying? Thoughts?
 
SilkyD said:
Hey guys,

I just have a quick question about logging dual time. I just got checked out as a renter at a local flight school. A buddy of mine who has a PPL has been a member of that flight school for some time and I recently got checked out so we could do some flying together.
Now, my question is when I do fly with him, can I log the time as dual. Just to clarify, I am a CFI. The reason I ask is that if I'm not a CFI at that school, are there any legality/liability issues of logging the time as dual when we're flying? Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Most flight schools prohibit instruction in their aircraft unless you are their employee. Also consider whether you are conducting training authorized under 61.193 when you log dual.

A person who holds a flight instructor certificate is authorized within the limitations of that person's flight instructor certificate and ratings to train and issue endorsements that are required for:
(a) A student pilot certificate;
(b) A pilot certificate;
(c) A flight instructor certificate;
(d) A ground instructor certificate;
(e) An aircraft rating;
(f) An instrument rating;
(g) A flight review, operating privilege, or recency of experience requirement of this part;
(h) A practical test; and
(i) A knowledge test.
Click to expand...

If you're not training toward one of these, it's probably not dual. If you're just trying to both log PIC at the same time, use a hood and get your friend started on his instrument!
 
Bernoulli Fan said:
Most flight schools prohibit instruction in their aircraft unless you are their employee. Also consider whether you are conducting training authorized under 61.193 when you log dual.



If you're not training toward one of these, it's probably not dual. If you're just trying to both log PIC at the same time, use a hood and get your friend started on his instrument!
Click to expand...

So if I am up learning aerobatics that doesnt count as dual? Just a hypothetical question. It doesnt fall under your list but I would still consider that dual. Or say I am up in a glider learning tips and tricks on how to thermal better after I have my license. Is that not dual either? Neither of those situtations seem to fall on your list but to me I would consider them dual time.
 
Bernoulli Fan said:
If you're not training toward one of these, it's probably not dual.
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That's not accurate. There are many, many scenarios from simple checkouts to recurrent training where it is dual without someone going for a certificate or rating.

The point is well taken, though. If you're pretending to instruct just to be able to log time as CFI, the FAA just might catch up with you. There's this story about two CFIs who gave each other dual on every flight so they could build up their time. Didn't work out too well when the FAA revoked all their certificates and ratings.
 
Thanks for the input guys.
Nah, I'm not looking to do it to log the extra time. I've got a decent amount of time in already. This guy just needs some help with his cross country work and some of his ADM and flying skills. He's pretty rusty. So I just figured if I was to give him pointers, it would be nice if I could log the time as dual.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
That's not accurate. There are many, many scenarios from simple checkouts to recurrent training where it is dual without someone going for a certificate or rating.
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I would say aerobatics falls under "operating privilege" (seems like a catch-all), but in any case, that's why I said "probably." There are examples such as the ones you've cited. My point, as Midlife said, was mainly a cautionary one.
 
The case Mark mentioned is FAA v. Crow and Pearson:
http://www.ntsb.gov/legal/o_n_o/docs/Aviation/4008.pdf
The issue in this case is not that the two of them were logging PIC- one as the CFI and the other as the "student". The problem is that the person acting as CFI did not log anything in the other's logbook as required by FAR 61.189, so, in essence, there was no real instruction going on. When the pilots realized this they sent in "amended" logbooks.
"Comparing the two logs, it is evident that there are virtually no entries in the "as flight instructor" column or the "dual received" column in Exhibit C2; however, there are many in the same columns of C17."
"Pearson testified that he and Crow updated their logbooks together in November 1992, by comparing notes that they had kept on pocket calendars. The entries they corrected were for flights made from April 1991 to September 1992. Unfortunately, they did not bring the calendars (which allegedly had more detailed information about instruction given and received and were updated regularly) with them to the hearing."
My emphasis. According to the judge if the pilots had presented this evidence that instruction had, in fact, occurred they probably would have been okay.

"Respondents argue that they intended to complete the flight entries and sign the logbook to indicate when instruction was
given, but that they were behind in their paperwork.9 It is the Administrator's position that respondents never intended to
correct the logbooks and only did so in an effort to justify having identical PIC times after they got caught. Thus, he asserts, they intentionally made false entries in their logbooks. The law judge agreed."

So basically it comes down to how you log it. If you log CFI time you must IAW 61.189 sign the logbook of the person to whom you are giving instruction. The regulation does not say should, it says must. So if you give ANY kind of instruction (or ground training for that matter), an entry must be made in the recipients logbook. Does not matter if it is an aircraft check out, tail wheel endorsement, space shuttle training.
To the OP you are perfectly legal logging this time as instructor time and PIC time. The person you were checking out can "log" this time as PIC as I assume they were the sole manipulator of the controls. You must, however, have made an endorsement in their logbook. In addition I would recommend giving the other pilot Wings credit for what they completed to have an additional record of what occurred and proof that instruction did, in fact, take place.
 
Bernoulli Fan said:
I would say aerobatics falls under "operating privilege" (seems like a catch-all), but in any case, that's why I said "probably." There are examples such as the ones you've cited. My point, as Midlife said, was mainly a cautionary one.
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Yes, that would be a case as long as the person doing the instruction actually signs the logbook of the recipient of the instruction.
 
SilkyD said:
Thanks for the input guys.
Nah, I'm not looking to do it to log the extra time. I've got a decent amount of time in already. This guy just needs some help with his cross country work and some of his ADM and flying skills. He's pretty rusty. So I just figured if I was to give him pointers, it would be nice if I could log the time as dual.
Click to expand...
Sounds like legit instruction to me.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
That's the one. My bet is that if it was logged "properly," the FAA would still have found a way to nail them for sham instruction.
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Perhaps, but if a CFI is giving legitimate instruction such as an aircraft checkout, and logs the instruction in the recipient's logbook I don't see an issue with the CFI also logging the time. Now 200 hours of dual for a Mooney checkout to one person who happens to be your co-owner...
 
What is the legality of say a airshow pilot giving dual aerobatic instruction without a CFI. Obviously they are qualified to teach aerobatics but without a CFI can they?
 
Inverted25 said:
What is the legality of say a airshow pilot giving dual aerobatic instruction without a CFI. Obviously they are qualified to teach aerobatics but without a CFI can they?
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It does not count as instruction. It is not to say such a flight might not be useful and a learning experience. My SU-29 checkout was given by a pilot who was not a CFI yet was a former member of the US aerobatic team. But it was not logged as dual received, was not required training and he did not log it as PIC since I was the one manipulating the controls. The other issue might be insurance if there is an incident.
 
Blackhawk said:
It does not count as instruction. It is not to say such a flight might not be useful and a learning experience. My SU-29 checkout was given by a pilot who was not a CFI yet was a former member of the US aerobatic team. But it was not logged as dual received, was not required training and he did not log it as PIC since I was the one manipulating the controls. The other issue might be insurance if there is an incident.
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can they charge for teaching you aerobatics?
 
Inverted25 said:
can they charge for teaching you aerobatics?
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Well, the way 119 is worded it does not apply to "student instruction". What really is "student instruction"? I think it is one of those questions best not asked as we may not like the answer. I know this type of "instruction" goes on and pilots are compensated for it, but as long as something is not written in a logbook by someone who is not a CFI I think it is an area the FAA avoids getting into.
 
Inverted25 said:
can they charge for teaching you aerobatics?
Click to expand...

Well, the way 119 is worded it does not apply to "student instruction". What really is "student instruction"? I think it is one of those questions best not asked as we may not like the answer. I know this type of "instruction" goes on and pilots are compensated for it, but as long as something is not written in a logbook by someone who is not a CFI I think it is an area the FAA avoids getting into.
 
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