Question about IFR approaches
- Thread starter Hootie
- Start date
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
First off...I don't time on an ILS approach. Most people do, but I believe that it's asking for trouble. A LOC approach and an ILS approach are two fundamentally different things. To have to switch from one to the other in IMC, without having briefed the approach as a LOC, gives me the willies.
Also, the MM is not always the Missed Approach point. You've got to remember, too.....there are a whole lot of ILS approaches with no marker beacons!!
Also, the MM is not always the Missed Approach point. You've got to remember, too.....there are a whole lot of ILS approaches with no marker beacons!!
Jeff_S_KDTW
New Member
[ QUOTE ]
First off...I don't time on an ILS approach. Most people do, but I believe that it's asking for trouble. A LOC approach and an ILS approach are two fundamentally different things. To have to switch from one to the other in IMC, without having briefed the approach as a LOC, gives me the willies.
[/ QUOTE ]I agree with you!!
However, if you are not timing your ILS and your GS goes out, how are you legally identifying your MAP? Without identification of your MAP, how do you know when to turn to your missed approach fix?
Curious.
First off...I don't time on an ILS approach. Most people do, but I believe that it's asking for trouble. A LOC approach and an ILS approach are two fundamentally different things. To have to switch from one to the other in IMC, without having briefed the approach as a LOC, gives me the willies.
[/ QUOTE ]I agree with you!!
However, if you are not timing your ILS and your GS goes out, how are you legally identifying your MAP? Without identification of your MAP, how do you know when to turn to your missed approach fix?
Curious.
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
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First off...I don't time on an ILS approach. Most people do, but I believe that it's asking for trouble. A LOC approach and an ILS approach are two fundamentally different things. To have to switch from one to the other in IMC, without having briefed the approach as a LOC, gives me the willies.
[/ QUOTE ]I agree with you!!
However, if you are not timing your ILS and your GS goes out, how are you legally identifying your MAP? Without identification of your MAP, how do you know when to turn to your missed approach fix?
[/ QUOTE ]
If I lose my GS, I go missed immediately. I'm not supposed to turn to my Holding fix (or where ever I'm supposed to go after a missed) until I've crossed the Missed Approach point, but that's not going to work with time only. See, unless I maintain an exact ground speed during my climb, that time is moot anyway.
So, my GS fails, I immediately start a climb, and request vectors for a LOC approach. Not in radar contact? Well, estimate when I think I'm over the MAP (or pretty close), and then proceed after that.
[ QUOTE ]
First off...I don't time on an ILS approach. Most people do, but I believe that it's asking for trouble. A LOC approach and an ILS approach are two fundamentally different things. To have to switch from one to the other in IMC, without having briefed the approach as a LOC, gives me the willies.
[/ QUOTE ]I agree with you!!
However, if you are not timing your ILS and your GS goes out, how are you legally identifying your MAP? Without identification of your MAP, how do you know when to turn to your missed approach fix?
[/ QUOTE ]
If I lose my GS, I go missed immediately. I'm not supposed to turn to my Holding fix (or where ever I'm supposed to go after a missed) until I've crossed the Missed Approach point, but that's not going to work with time only. See, unless I maintain an exact ground speed during my climb, that time is moot anyway.
So, my GS fails, I immediately start a climb, and request vectors for a LOC approach. Not in radar contact? Well, estimate when I think I'm over the MAP (or pretty close), and then proceed after that.
[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
First off...I don't time on an ILS approach. Most people do, but I believe that it's asking for trouble. A LOC approach and an ILS approach are two fundamentally different things. To have to switch from one to the other in IMC, without having briefed the approach as a LOC, gives me the willies.
[/ QUOTE ]I agree with you!!
However, if you are not timing your ILS and your GS goes out, how are you legally identifying your MAP? Without identification of your MAP, how do you know when to turn to your missed approach fix?
[/ QUOTE ]
If I lose my GS, I go missed immediately. I'm not supposed to turn to my Holding fix (or where ever I'm supposed to go after a missed) until I've crossed the Missed Approach point, but that's not going to work with time only. See, unless I maintain an exact ground speed during my climb, that time is moot anyway.
So, my GS fails, I immediately start a climb, and request vectors for a LOC approach. Not in radar contact? Well, estimate when I think I'm over the MAP (or pretty close), and then proceed after that.
[/ QUOTE ]
hehehe. No desire to flex from an ILS to a LOC? (AF the needling Marine........
)
[off-topic BTW, isn't fun how the most militarily unrelated things/topics around here instantly become an interservice rivalry between the mil members as soon as the opportunity arises and one of us can get a laugh out of it?]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
First off...I don't time on an ILS approach. Most people do, but I believe that it's asking for trouble. A LOC approach and an ILS approach are two fundamentally different things. To have to switch from one to the other in IMC, without having briefed the approach as a LOC, gives me the willies.
[/ QUOTE ]I agree with you!!
However, if you are not timing your ILS and your GS goes out, how are you legally identifying your MAP? Without identification of your MAP, how do you know when to turn to your missed approach fix?
[/ QUOTE ]
If I lose my GS, I go missed immediately. I'm not supposed to turn to my Holding fix (or where ever I'm supposed to go after a missed) until I've crossed the Missed Approach point, but that's not going to work with time only. See, unless I maintain an exact ground speed during my climb, that time is moot anyway.
So, my GS fails, I immediately start a climb, and request vectors for a LOC approach. Not in radar contact? Well, estimate when I think I'm over the MAP (or pretty close), and then proceed after that.
[/ QUOTE ]
hehehe. No desire to flex from an ILS to a LOC? (AF the needling Marine........
[off-topic BTW, isn't fun how the most militarily unrelated things/topics around here instantly become an interservice rivalry between the mil members as soon as the opportunity arises and one of us can get a laugh out of it?]
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[ QUOTE ]
Also, the MM is not always the Missed Approach point. You've got to remember, too.....there are a whole lot of ILS approaches with no marker beacons!!
[/ QUOTE ]
Should've clarified, if the ILS/LOC approach has a MM then it is the MAP, correct?
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Not always. MAP and MM may or may not be co-located.
[ QUOTE ]
Also, the MM is not always the Missed Approach point. You've got to remember, too.....there are a whole lot of ILS approaches with no marker beacons!!
[/ QUOTE ]
Should've clarified, if the ILS/LOC approach has a MM then it is the MAP, correct?
[/ QUOTE ]
Not always. MAP and MM may or may not be co-located.
Hootie
Old Skool
[ QUOTE ]
So, my GS fails, I immediately start a climb, and request vectors for a LOC approach. Not in radar contact? Well, estimate when I think I'm over the MAP (or pretty close), and then proceed after that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well even though timing isn't exact science since you don't time your approaches do you estimate your MAP by sorta a touchy feely seat of the pants hunch?
So, my GS fails, I immediately start a climb, and request vectors for a LOC approach. Not in radar contact? Well, estimate when I think I'm over the MAP (or pretty close), and then proceed after that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well even though timing isn't exact science since you don't time your approaches do you estimate your MAP by sorta a touchy feely seat of the pants hunch?
Hootie
Old Skool
[ QUOTE ]
Not always. MAP and MM may or may not be co-located.
[/ QUOTE ]
In most cases an ILS approach has 2 marker beacons, an outer and a middle. The MM by the "FAA terms" is at a position where the GS centerline is about 200ft above the tdz elevation. So since there could possible be up to+or -- 75 ft error on the alt. , if they are co-located is the MAP just a whichever occurs first or a combination of the two or is there a specified on over the other that I am missing or is it all gray area open for interpretation?
Not always. MAP and MM may or may not be co-located.
[/ QUOTE ]
In most cases an ILS approach has 2 marker beacons, an outer and a middle. The MM by the "FAA terms" is at a position where the GS centerline is about 200ft above the tdz elevation. So since there could possible be up to+or -- 75 ft error on the alt. , if they are co-located is the MAP just a whichever occurs first or a combination of the two or is there a specified on over the other that I am missing or is it all gray area open for interpretation?
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, my GS fails, I immediately start a climb, and request vectors for a LOC approach. Not in radar contact? Well, estimate when I think I'm over the MAP (or pretty close), and then proceed after that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well even though timing isn't exact science since you don't time your approaches do you estimate your MAP by sorta a touchy feely seat of the pants hunch?
[/ QUOTE ]
Whenever The Force let's me know I'm near...lol.
Really, if I'm 1000 feet about the DH and I lose my GS while decending at 500 FPM, I'm probably about 2 minutes away from the ILS MAP. With that, I can get a rough estimate of when I'm over the MAP.
[ QUOTE ]
So, my GS fails, I immediately start a climb, and request vectors for a LOC approach. Not in radar contact? Well, estimate when I think I'm over the MAP (or pretty close), and then proceed after that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well even though timing isn't exact science since you don't time your approaches do you estimate your MAP by sorta a touchy feely seat of the pants hunch?
[/ QUOTE ]
Whenever The Force let's me know I'm near...lol.
Really, if I'm 1000 feet about the DH and I lose my GS while decending at 500 FPM, I'm probably about 2 minutes away from the ILS MAP. With that, I can get a rough estimate of when I'm over the MAP.
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[off-topic BTW, isn't fun how the most militarily unrelated things/topics around here instantly become an interservice rivalry between the mil members as soon as the opportunity arises and one of us can get a laugh out of it?]
[/ QUOTE ]
LOL....oh, it's what it's all about!! You know, soon2bmarace left the other day....heading out to Quantico for TBS...if you're ever out in the area, give him a shout!!
[back to discussion]
[off-topic BTW, isn't fun how the most militarily unrelated things/topics around here instantly become an interservice rivalry between the mil members as soon as the opportunity arises and one of us can get a laugh out of it?]
[/ QUOTE ]
LOL....oh, it's what it's all about!! You know, soon2bmarace left the other day....heading out to Quantico for TBS...if you're ever out in the area, give him a shout!!
[back to discussion]
If an ILS approach has a MM then the position of the MM typically coincides with DH, which is the MAP on the ILS. On the LOC approach however, the MAP is usually the threshold. The distance between the MM and the threshold is usually between 0.4 - 0.7 nm. It probably doesn't make that much of a difference at typical approach speeds.
I always time on the ILS, and during training made the transition from ILS to LOC approach several times. But I would be a lot more cautious doing it in IMC.
Dave
I always time on the ILS, and during training made the transition from ILS to LOC approach several times. But I would be a lot more cautious doing it in IMC.
Dave
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
If I lose my GS, I go missed immediately. I'm not supposed to turn to my Holding fix (or where ever I'm supposed to go after a missed) until I've crossed the Missed Approach point, but that's not going to work with time only. See, unless I maintain an exact ground speed during my climb, that time is moot anyway.
[/ QUOTE ]I'm not sure I can go along with you on this one. Those times are estimates to begin with - I don't know too many people who recalculate their groundspeed with every wind shift on any kind of approach, precision or not.
That ask for vectors idea is terrific except for a small problem. First, you're assuming you can =get=vectors. There are ILS approaches in areas where the terrain features might mean no line of sight for communication and certainly no radar coverage for vectors until you continue your straight ahead climb right into the terrain that the eventual turn is meant to help you avoid.
On, one should not "time" an ILS Approach. Precision approaches have a DA that is glideslope, not time dependent. But, developing the habit of hitting the timer whenever crossing a FAF (1) means one less thing to think about (2) means one less thing to forget when you do fly a non-precision approach and (3) may be your only way of even estimating the MAP if something goes awry.
If I lose my GS, I go missed immediately. I'm not supposed to turn to my Holding fix (or where ever I'm supposed to go after a missed) until I've crossed the Missed Approach point, but that's not going to work with time only. See, unless I maintain an exact ground speed during my climb, that time is moot anyway.
[/ QUOTE ]I'm not sure I can go along with you on this one. Those times are estimates to begin with - I don't know too many people who recalculate their groundspeed with every wind shift on any kind of approach, precision or not.
That ask for vectors idea is terrific except for a small problem. First, you're assuming you can =get=vectors. There are ILS approaches in areas where the terrain features might mean no line of sight for communication and certainly no radar coverage for vectors until you continue your straight ahead climb right into the terrain that the eventual turn is meant to help you avoid.
On, one should not "time" an ILS Approach. Precision approaches have a DA that is glideslope, not time dependent. But, developing the habit of hitting the timer whenever crossing a FAF (1) means one less thing to think about (2) means one less thing to forget when you do fly a non-precision approach and (3) may be your only way of even estimating the MAP if something goes awry.
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I lose my GS, I go missed immediately. I'm not supposed to turn to my Holding fix (or where ever I'm supposed to go after a missed) until I've crossed the Missed Approach point, but that's not going to work with time only. See, unless I maintain an exact ground speed during my climb, that time is moot anyway.
[/ QUOTE ]I'm not sure I can go along with you on this one.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, that's cool too....
I see what you're saying, but to me, hitting the timer at every FAF to "get in the habit" is akin to saying "Gear down" no matter what type of plane I'm flying. It begins to mean nothing.
[ QUOTE ]
If I lose my GS, I go missed immediately. I'm not supposed to turn to my Holding fix (or where ever I'm supposed to go after a missed) until I've crossed the Missed Approach point, but that's not going to work with time only. See, unless I maintain an exact ground speed during my climb, that time is moot anyway.
[/ QUOTE ]I'm not sure I can go along with you on this one.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, that's cool too....
I see what you're saying, but to me, hitting the timer at every FAF to "get in the habit" is akin to saying "Gear down" no matter what type of plane I'm flying. It begins to mean nothing.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I see what you're saying, but to me, hitting the timer at every FAF to "get in the habit" is akin to saying "Gear down" no matter what type of plane I'm flying. It begins to mean nothing.
[/ QUOTE ]I agree with you about the "gear down". But "gear down" in a fixed gear airplane doesn't do anything/ Hitting time timer all the time means the timer always starts.
It's more like signalling for a turn at 3 AM with no traffic around. Some do and some don't, and for a lot of drivers it probably doesn't make a difference, but I'd bet that the ones that do almost never forget to do it when they need to.
I see what you're saying, but to me, hitting the timer at every FAF to "get in the habit" is akin to saying "Gear down" no matter what type of plane I'm flying. It begins to mean nothing.
[/ QUOTE ]I agree with you about the "gear down". But "gear down" in a fixed gear airplane doesn't do anything/ Hitting time timer all the time means the timer always starts.
It's more like signalling for a turn at 3 AM with no traffic around. Some do and some don't, and for a lot of drivers it probably doesn't make a difference, but I'd bet that the ones that do almost never forget to do it when they need to.
Hootie
Old Skool
Okay relating to my last post I am guessing it is all gray area. After some thinking if on an ILS approach with a failed GS (thus becoming a LOC) that has no obvious MAP (dme fix), I plan on using the MM (if it has one, most likely will) then the time. If the LOC and the GS fail then I will wish Llyod had been my CFII so I could have been taught how to use the force
One last Question
So the MAP on an ILS is the DA (or do they call it DH these days) even if there is a MM?
One last Question
So the MAP on an ILS is the DA (or do they call it DH these days) even if there is a MM?
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It's more like signalling for a turn at 3 AM with no traffic around. Some do and some don't, and for a lot of drivers it probably doesn't make a difference, but I'd bet that the ones that do almost never forget to do it when they need to.
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Very good analogy. WHen I am shooting the appproaches, I go through:
time - start timer
gear - down and locked
power - reduce power 500 rpms (ILS)
tower - contact tower
That was pounded into me and I doubt IO will soon forget it.
It's more like signalling for a turn at 3 AM with no traffic around. Some do and some don't, and for a lot of drivers it probably doesn't make a difference, but I'd bet that the ones that do almost never forget to do it when they need to.
[/ QUOTE ]
Very good analogy. WHen I am shooting the appproaches, I go through:
time - start timer
gear - down and locked
power - reduce power 500 rpms (ILS)
tower - contact tower
That was pounded into me and I doubt IO will soon forget it.
Non precision I use @ FAF
T-Time
T-Turn if requried
P-Power
T-Talk or Tower
G-Gear
L-Lights
Precison Apph
T-Time
P-Power
T-Talk or Tower
G-Gear
L-Lights
Past instructor also taught me before IAF doing a WIRE
W-Weather I-Instruments R-Radios E-Execute
Pretty much get current weather set your instruments set your radios and execute (sp?) how are you going to fly the approach basicly your briefing the approach
Past examiner also said why make it harder than it has to. Meaning if you have DME and it can be used don't bother to time less cockpit workload
T-Time
T-Turn if requried
P-Power
T-Talk or Tower
G-Gear
L-Lights
Precison Apph
T-Time
P-Power
T-Talk or Tower
G-Gear
L-Lights
Past instructor also taught me before IAF doing a WIRE
W-Weather I-Instruments R-Radios E-Execute
Pretty much get current weather set your instruments set your radios and execute (sp?) how are you going to fly the approach basicly your briefing the approach
Past examiner also said why make it harder than it has to. Meaning if you have DME and it can be used don't bother to time less cockpit workload
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
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Past examiner also said why make it harder than it has to. Meaning if you have DME and it can be used don't bother to time less cockpit workload
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If the DME is off the LOC, then I could see that. If it's off the VOR or a GPS, then I would still start the timer. You can lose the signal on the VOR or have a RAIM failure on the GPS. Then again, I'm paranoid. I really don't see hitting a button as a huge increase in my cockpit workload.
Past examiner also said why make it harder than it has to. Meaning if you have DME and it can be used don't bother to time less cockpit workload
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If the DME is off the LOC, then I could see that. If it's off the VOR or a GPS, then I would still start the timer. You can lose the signal on the VOR or have a RAIM failure on the GPS. Then again, I'm paranoid. I really don't see hitting a button as a huge increase in my cockpit workload.