Q for ex-pan am students

Because there is NOOOOO way the Chief would bend the numbers a bit, right?

Consider the source, do your own research. I highly doubt that FSI costs more. I started with my PP-ASEL, and I will finish my CIME at around 40K (I'll let you guys know when I add it up at the end). I'll have 55-60 multi.

Chunk
 
Chunk,

We can figure that out ourselves. What does Flight Safety charge for instruction? If we can get Pan Am's rate from justme we can work it out.

The reason I tend to believe the Chief's numbers was that he said that at one of our instructor meetings. There were lots of ex-Flight Safety instructors there. I would imagine if he was being untruthful one of them would have blown the whistle on him.

You're right though, best to check it ourselves.
 
"turtle…I don't remember the exact numbers but even when you added the 20% brief charge onto the hourly rate, Pan Am was still less than Flight Safety (I haven't verified these numbers - I just figured he was telling the truth)."

Wow! He must be telling the truth if it is cheaper than Flight Safety. Pun intended. Who cares about how much cheaper it is than Flight Safety or any other high priced school. All the numbers they feed everyone are just the minimums. The fact of the matter is that the students are being charged for a brief that they never get. What is the just in that? Oh, lets try to sugar coat it so it doesn’t sound like we are getting ripped off that bad. If they want more money they should increase prices where it would look legit rather than gouge the student where it is so obvious that they are being ripped off. If you buy something at the store and the cashier gives you your money back minus one doller, you would want that doller back. Now say the cash register over charged you by $20 bucks, you would probable be a little upset especial if every time you went shopping you were overcharged $20. Pan Am does this everyday, but students brush it off. You would think if management were reading these threads, they would try to improve their game. They must be making so much money that they don’t care how many people leave Pan Am, because the attitude “if you don’t like then leave” bit says exactly that. These people are crooks!
 
Joe,

I agree with you about their billing policy and I even suggested to Pan Am that if they're going to charge 20% extra they should just increase their instructor rates and eliminate the brief charge. As you pointed out, it would eliminate a lot of student animosity. Why they refuse to do this is anybody's guess.

Three points, though:


1. I instructed at Pan Am for 11 months and I absolutely guarantee you that my students got their brief time. If the schedule allowed we would do a pre-flight brief for 30 or 45 minutes. In addition to this, before checkrides and stage checks we briefed for hours at no charge. On my days off they came to my apartment and we briefed for hours at no charge. Bottom line is that, depending on the instructor, some students actually do get their brief time (I personally know several instructors at Pan Am's Ft. Pierce campus who are very generous with their time - can't speak for Deer Valley, though).

2. I agree with you that the numbers quoted by flight schools to complete their various programs are based on FAA minimums and are, therefore, pretty much worthless. It's going to take you roughly the same amount of flight time to get your ratings no matter which school you go to so what does matter is the hourly cost for aircraft and instructors. (Of course you have to also factor in the quality of the aircraft. If you can't fly because the planes are broke it's not such a great deal).

3. What you call "sugar coating" I just call practicality. I care about the bottom line - how many dollars are leaving my account for each hour of instruction received. If Pan Am's hourly rate for instruction is less EVEN after they add the 20% brief charge (and that's a big IF - I'm still in the process of doing an actual comparison) than, like it or not, you're getting the best deal by staying at Pan Am. I understand your frustration because you feel like you're getting ripped off, but if you go to another flight school that has a higher hourly rate than Pan Am the bottom line is that you're going to be spending more money for your training. The choice is yours but I'd stay at the place with the lowest comparable rates - regardless of how the bill is calculated.

By the time I left Pan Am I had pretty much had it with the whole organization. I was tired of being ripped off, treated like dirt and having their, "if you don't like it you can leave" philosophy crammed down my throat (sound familiar?
smile.gif
). Now that I'm at another flight school, believe it or not, Pan Am doesn't look so bad. Before you leave Pan Am do some serious checking to make sure that you're going to like your new school (i.e. ignore their marketing people - talk to the students).
 
"If they want more money they should increase prices where it would look legit rather than gouge the student where it is so obvious that they are being ripped off"

i've said the exact same thing before. its not so much getting ripped off as it is a feeling of getting ripped off. when you list a seperate brief cost and then you get no brief you feel a little shafted. however, this problem in my experience rarely, if ever, happened when i had an instructor that was fully trained at Panam from PPL to MEI. having gone through it all they respected that breif time just as much as the students did.
 
i asked the same questions in regards to FSA instruction cost vs. Panam but i couldn't locate the old posting. from what i remember the two did come out to be somewhat equal even with the brief cost thing tied on. either way, what is the cost for instruction at FSA?

from a flight on 6/2/02 i calculated the instruction cost at Panam to be somewhere near $44 at Panam
 
on the print out it says "flight" and "brief" and they have associated charges. the brief was $80.00 and the flight was $160.20...all for a 1.8 hour flight.

it breaks down the hours and says i was charged for 2.5 hours of brief time on a 1.8 hour flight. so it basically says i had a 1.8 hour flightcharge , got charged for 1.8 hours of instruction in the plane, and another charge for 0.7 hours of brief time.

oh, and right above it i was charged $98.00 for a frasca flight and $64.00 for brief because i was out sick for three days. didn't notice that until recently. my instructor had come in sick for like 3 days in a row and gotten all her students sick including me. i was out for 3 days and came in sick after the third just to avoid getting cancelation charges but turns out you get charged the third day if you have no doctors note. no work = no medical insurance = no doctors note. i'm a little bitter on that one still
 
FSI charges $55 per hour for instructor time.
A normal lesson has 1 hour of brief time built into it. This is usually the max amount of time an instructor would bill. We bill each lessons brief time on an individual basis. If a student shows up prepared and knowing the material, I usually end up with mabye .4 or .5 brief time charged for a lesson. If a long review is required then possibly 1 hour will be charged.
The standard is- brief time is charged when the instructor and student are together and teaching/learning is occuring. (ie no brief time for small talk, walking out to the airplane, normal preflight, turning in airplane, ect. We try to use basic common sense)
 
so thats $55.00 flat per hour, and then extra for brief time? or was it extra for briefs beyond an hour? sorry, i'm a little confused, its late
 
Their is one rate for brief, 55/hr. Most students I know get charged an average of .3-.5 of brief per lesson. The student signs any charge tags so if you have a beef, just don't sign and talk it out. I keep all my old tags (invoices)...lemme take a peek here.

Picking out a couple of random tags out of the stack:

2.2 hour lesson in the pa44 and .8 brief
2.2 * 255 + .8*55

1.5 in the pa44, .6 brief

2.1 in the PA28, .2 brief

Chunk
 
so thats $255.00 for the seminole per hour, and then brief costs you $55.00 per hour?

so they just include your instruction charges in the price of renting the aircraft ($255.00/hour), and then any additional "brief time is added at an additional $55.00 per hour?

Panam charges $181.00/hour in the seminole, and the instruction charges are the number of hours in the aircraft multiplied by 1.4 charged at what i beleive is $44 per hour from what i saw on my recipts. so they basically say on a one hour flight that you get one hour of instruction and .4 of an hour for additional briefing time automatically added.
 
automatically? wow, that sux. Our curriculum calls for a certain amount of brief time and that's figured into the contracted costs, but most instructors don't charge what is allowed, therefore it's not uncommon to come in under budget!

Chunk
 
It is $55 per hour. How long you brief is how much your charged. The hour is just a recomendation. (If you only brief for half an hour or .5 the student is charged $22.50 in brief time for that lesson)
 
so the Panam prices are a bit cheaper on paper, even though its not at all a good measure of total cost and quality or anything
 
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