Pushy parents? Overcontrolling parents?

jrh

jrh

Well-Known Member
I'd like to hear some advice about an interesting situation I'm getting into.

A middle-aged guy came into the flight center where I work this afternoon. I started talking with him and he told me how his daughter had been training at an airport a few miles away, but wasn't able to continue there because the aircraft she was training in was destroyed in an accident and the CFI/owner was getting out of the business.

Then he started telling me that he was wanting her to train in a more structured environment. He told me that he had been flying with her some and practically giving her instruction, but he wasn't a CFI, so it didn't count. Apparently he has commercial single and multi certificates and used to own a 172, but only flies for recreation. After the other place lost their 152 in the crash, he took her flying in a friend's 182, but she didn't feel comfortable flying a larger plane after training in the 152 (which is why he was coming to my school). He said he wanted her to fly about once per week and he wanted her to get her private license as quickly as possible. In general, he seemed to be calling the shots for her training.

I was starting to think I was going to be dealing with a girl in high school being pushed by her dad. When I asked where she went to school, he told me that she is a senior at a university a couple of hours from here, but comes home on the weekends. We set up an appointment for both of them to come back on Sunday morning. At first I was only planning for them to talk with me about training and look at our fleet, but he told me he wants me to fly with her.

I'm having multiple concerns about this situation. Primarily, I don't want to fly with somebody who isn't seriously interested in doing it for themself. I got a very strong feeling from talking to this guy that it was more his desire for her to learn rather than hers.

Second, what is going on where he is arranging everything for his adult daughter? It just seems a bit weird, and I don't want him to interfere with my dealings with her. I think it's best if I deal with students directly. I don't want to get into the position of keeping him up to date on her progress or something, which I can see happening here.

Third, I'm not sure about this, but he seemed like a bit of a know it all. The comments like, "I'm not an instructor, but it was practically instruction" sort of rubbed me the wrong way. I don't want to have him second guessing what techniques I teach, I don't want him to be offended if I find some bad habits that he passed on to her, nor do I want him to push me to sign her off for anything before she's ready. She has about 15 hours (loggable hours, that is) and solo'd through the other place.

Has anybody faced similar issues? This is a little different than the uneducated parents of a 12 year old being pushy. How should I address the situation when I meet with them on Sunday morning?
 
From what you've said, it DOES sound like it's more his deal than hers. I would attempt to talk to her at some point WITHOUT daddy around to try to determine if this is what she wants or what he wants. Sounds like it could be a huge case of "Soccer Dad."

As far as him setting up things for his adult daughter, if she's busy in school, it's possible he might have volunteered to book the flights for her instead of her having to worry about it. That's just one scenario based scenario off the top of my head. It's equally possible that she comes home from school and hears "You've got a lesson on Sunday, and you're going." See paragraph one under "Soccer Dad."

As far as him second guessing your techniques, I have a feeling his not the last person you'll run into like this. I imagine there are a LOT of pilots out there with family members learning how to fly with the "You're instructor said THAT?" mentality. He might just need a subtle reminder on who the expert in instruction actually is and who has the experience in teaching people to fly. He might be able to do a lazy eight PTS perfect, but can he show someone ELSE how to do it?

Man, never realized the similarities between flight instructing and coaching little league.......
 
I'm currently dealing with the opposite end of the spectrum, an older (read: in her 60s) lady who is doing her flight training because her boyfriend/sugar daddy/whatever wants her to. She has no interest in it and each lesson is like pulling teeth.

I'm curious to see how you other CFIs deal with others who really don't want to do this and don't seem to learn it very well. Does anyone ever give the, "Well, you're just flat-out not a pilot" speech? I'm going to give her to another instructor for a lesson or two to see if it's just my teaching style, but I have a feeling it's not.
 
I say give it a shot. I have a student who's dad seemed to be the same way thats in your situation. I haven't seen the father since the first day I met him. His son comes and flight trains with me a goes on. I will probably be giving the father a call by the end of the week to inform him to come out and watch his son solo at the end of the week.
 
Could be that she's afraid of being 'taken', or not being taken seriously because she's a girl. Could be that she really values her father's opinion of schools/training. Or she could be doing it only because daddy wants her to.

The only way to find out what's going on is to get her alone and gauge her desires. Maybe some general yet pointed discussions along the lines of "so, your dad seems pretty pumped about you flying". You'll be able to tell fairly easily in a one-on-one conversation her motives. If nothing else works, just ask her point blank if the only reason she's flying is because daddy wants her to.
 
A couple of months ago I had a call from Maxie Price (for those of you who live in Atlanta, this is the dealership owner). He is a pilot and wanted his son to learn how to fly and was looking for a competent instructor. After discussing my qualifications to his satisfaction for over twenty minutes, I asked if this was something his son wanted (his son is 17) or something he wanted. My answer was that he got upset and hung up.

Chris - I've had the 'this isn't for you' discussion with a couple of students now. One got ticked off, left the school and then went through all five instuctors at another location before the chief pilot there sent him on his way. The other one just enjoys flying and still comes in from time to time just to enjoy the ride.
 
To let you all know how it went...it didn't.

I went out to the airport about 8:30 in order to pull out a plane and get it ready to go for our 9:00 appointment. After shuffling a few planes around in our hangar and bringing out our nicest 152, cleaning its windshield, and parking it out front, I went back into the office to meet them. Nobody was there, so I checked the voicemail, and at 8:47 the dad had called to cancel. He said they'd been hiking all day Saturday in Hells Canyon (very rugged terrain along the Oregon/Idaho border) and she was too worn out to fly. I called him back to let him know I got his message and he said, "I'm sorry about this, I really wanted her to fly this morning, but she's just too tired."

So that was that. He said he'd call me back and reschedule another appointment later. Whenever that time rolls around, I'll see what happens. I'm sure I'll have some time alone with the girl during preflight that I can find out what she really thinks about flying.

As far as the other question about if I've ever had to tell somebody aviation wasn't for them--I almost did, but thankfully the problem solved itself. I had a student this spring that had been flying all school year and was not even close to soloing after 30+ hours. His flying was mediocre/passable, but his judgement and academic capacity were terrible. One day during preflight we had 1/4 tanks of fuel, so I asked him if we were good to go. He said we were and was ready to hop in and fly. That sort of thing...never thought things through causes and effects.

I talked to the directors of our flight program about him and found out that he was being treated for some learning disabilities. It was one of those sticky areas where I had to know enough about what was going on to be a good instructor, but I couldn't know too much because I'm still a college student myself and of course there were his confidentiality issues to think about. I couldn't know his specific grades, medical history, etc.

The problem sort of resolved itself when he straight out asked me if I thought he would be able to get his commercial license. I told him, "Well...I know pilots who have been successful with some amazing physical handicaps, so I think a lot of problems in training can be overcome. If you are able to find a way to learn effectively, it might take time, but it's possible. However, I have to say, that things don't get any easier after the private license. The instrument rating is just as much, if not more work, especially academically. The commercial license is about the same difficulty as the private. That is something to be aware of."

I think he later decided to try to get his private license still, but no longer go for a career as a pilot. He didn't solo before the end of school, then left, and I'm not sure what happened to him. Last I heard he had moved to Klamath Falls, Oregon to work and try flight training there.
 
So how do these "you're just not good enough" speeches traditionally go? Are you folks blunt or do you dance around the issue and let them connect the dots? And if they're too oblivious to connect the dots, then what?
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Well, first off, I believe that those "you're not cut out to fly" speeches should be incredibly few and far between. It takes a student with some very significant problems to deserve one of those speeches. I think that with enough time, effort, motivation, and a good instructor, almost anybody can learn to fly.

In the example of my situation, I tried to tactfully give the student the straight deal on why flying might not be the best for him. I told him that it was possible, but he needed to be aware that it was going to take a significant amount of work, and it wasn't going to get any easier. And that's honestly what I thought....I don't think problems like dyslexia, ADD, or other learning disabilities ought to automatically slam the door on flying, but they will make it harder and need to be addressed.

So to answer your question about how to go about giving one of those speeches, I would advise that the instructor be absolutely certain that it will be impossible to continue. Then, when talking to the student, tell them specifically why it will be impossible to continue. If it's an aeromedical factor, that talk should come from an AME. I knew an instructor that had a student who absolutely sucked at landings, and he couldn't figure out why. When he found out the student had tunnel vision, he had to have this chat with her, but he also referred her to an AME to make certain nothing could be done to help her.

In fact, now that I think about it, I don't know of any other reason besides an aeromedical factor that would absolutely prohibit somebody from learning to fly. I tell all my students that the physical handling of an aircraft comes to everybody with time. It comes easier to some and harder for others, but it always comes (with the right instruction, that is). Saying, "You suck at straight and level flight," isn't a valid reason to tell a student to quit. It might be a sign of an underlying problem that is worse, but handling the aircraft is low on my list of concerns I have about students.

What other reasons would you need to tell a student to quit?
 
Well the problem that I'm facing is that I've got a student who seems to be in it for all the wrong reasons. Her sugar daddy is her financier, and he's an owner of an aircraft manufacturer thingie (replica piper cubs) and he has hired her as his regional sales manager, and she originally wanted to be done by Oshkosh (which all involved, except her, knew was impossible, and we tried to explain that to her, but she wouldn't have it).

At this juncture, we're at about 10-12 hours and she's barely able to keep us straight and level +/- 100 feet, which I wouldn't see as much of a problem if she was working hard and trying, but it seems that whenever I ask her to memorize a procedure, or ask her a question on the ground stuff, she draws a complete blank, and even at some times admits to not doing the ground lessons.

So the problem is, a lack of motivation from the start, a lack of genuine interest in aviation/flying/learning to fly, and no desire to learn the ground stuff (which is more important than flying the airplane itself, in my mind).

Side note, it was interesting when we did our instrument lesson, I explain that the hood is so she can't see outside, and that we're only looking at the instrument panel... Well every 5 seconds she'd lift her head up and look outside. Took me a few minutes before I realized she was doing remarkably better than I had anticipated, so I look at her and she's cheating. It gets a little frustrating eventually.
 
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So the problem is, a lack of motivation from the start, a lack of genuine interest in aviation/flying/learning to fly, and no desire to learn the ground stuff (which is more important than flying the airplane itself, in my mind).

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Hmmm...interesting problem.

Is she aware that she is having problems? If so, does she care? Is she bothered by it? Or does she think that is the normal progression to becoming a pilot?

Something I would do would be to straight out ask her, "What got you interested in aviation? What do you want to get out of this? Do you enjoy learning to fly? Up to this point, how has your training compared to what you expected it to be like before you started?" Those questions serve as both information for you, as well as to make her think about what she is doing for herself. If you're lucky, she might realize she's doing it for the wrong reasons.

However, by the way it sounds, you're not going to get that lucky.

In that case, I'd sit down with her and ask, "How do you think your training is going?" That way you can at least get an idea of if she has anywhere close to the same ideas as you. Then say, "Well, I'm getting concerned about the way things are going, and here's why..." Start by telling her that while flying can be a heck of a lot of fun, there are times that it takes work. It's not an activity that you can just put in your time towards, study a little here and there, and get your license. You have to know the stuff. And that's not about just getting a license, that's about being safe. If she wants to competently be able to fly alone, she has to know the rules and she has to know the procedures. She has to know how to think for herself and handle the aircraft, because you're not always going to be there to watch out for her.

Tell her that you believe she could be a decent pilot if she really enjoyed it, and was motivated to learn as much as she could, but from what you've observed, she doesn't seem very excited about what she's doing. Things like peeking from under the hood and not doing much ground work before lessons indicates that she's trying to get by with the minimums, and that's a dangerous spot to put oneself in. She's cheating herself by doing those types of things.

Remind her that there are standards that have to be met in order to solo, in order to be signed off to do solo cross countries, and in order to get her license. Ask her if she enjoys flying enough/is willing to put the effort in to meet those standards. Ask her how she expects to meet those standards when she is working at the pace she is currently working at.

Basically, tell her that you want to do as much as possible to get her her license, but there are limits on how much you can do. You can direct her, but you can't do the work for her.

You could also tell her that it's ok not to love aviation. If it's more work than enjoyment, that is something to consider. If you don't enjoy something, there isn't much of a point in doing it.

Tell her to take some time and think about if she enjoys it enough to make the work worthwhile. If she is going to get her license in a reasonable amount if time, she has to believe for herself that the effort will be worth the reward. If she doesn't, and continues at the pace she's going, training might continue indefinately.

Essentially, she's in control of her own training, and it's up to her if she'll be successful or not. Make her realize that this isn't something that magically gets done over time. It's something that takes time, effort, and motivation.

By saying something along these lines, you're putting the ball in her court and forcing her to think about what is going on. Hopefully she'll either straighten up and become a better student, or else decide for herself that flying isn't for her. Either way, it's a better outcome than you unilaterally telling her that she can't be a pilot and that you're dropping her. If she isn't successful, she can't blame anybody but herself.

Hopefully this gave you some ideas. Let me know how things go with her in the future.
 
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Essentially, she's in control of her own training, and it's up to her if she'll be successful or not. Make her realize that this isn't something that magically gets done over time. It's something that takes time, effort, and motivation.

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I've had two cases that I did not think would get their private - in the first, he had minor brain damage from a car wreck and had slow reflexes (his radio calls, flying, etc was good but the landings were always rough). In this case the FAA helped me out by denying his medical. He still comes in to fly for fun from time to time. The second case, every time we bumped, he let go of the flight controls and squeaked. I was very straight forward with him after the fourth flight - he then blamed it on me and went through five other instructors before calling it quits.

My 2 cents is to let the girl keep flying and either the lack of progress or a general accounting of the funds will force her to take it seriously or call it quits.
 
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The second case, every time we bumped, he let go of the flight controls and squeaked. I was very straight forward with him after the fourth flight - he then blamed it on me and went through five other instructors before calling it quits.

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I would tend to think it was your fault.

CFIIS (Certified Flight Instructor Induced Squeaking) is a serious problem that MUST be addressed.
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CFIIS (Certified Flight Instructor Induced Squeaking) is a serious problem that MUST be addressed.
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HA!

I really think it all comes down to attitude. If the student really wants it, they will work hard, overcome adversity, blah, blah, blah. If they don't really give a crap, no amount of natural talent will let 'em have it because flying dosen't work that way.

I've only had the do "the talk" two times, and both times the individual concerned redoubled his efforts, put in the work and study, and got thier tickets. One was a guy who just had no innate talent, period. Practice, practice, practice sorted him out.
The other guy was a REAL mess-- he was got airsick every single time we flew . I had a brief, private, tactful talk with him, out of pure saftey concerns. The guy was acutally a good stick, but had suffered ear infections as a child. The guy kept at it, his airsickness eventually abated, and when I left CFIing he was working on his commercial ticket, and he and I became good friends. He's a hell of a good guy, and I wish him the best of luck.

I've had other people come down the pike full of nothing but apathy and daddy's money, thinking they can buy a pilots certificate, and that's where the CFI's one great check comes into play: the sign-off. The standards are right there in black and white, and if you can't do 'em, you can't get signed off, period. If you can do them, then there's no reason I can't sign you off.
 
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