Pull your head out of your...

Nark

Macho Superpilot
I was towing banners around the Holiday Bowl in San Diego today, there were four of us (banners), plus a big bubble looking thing with snoopy on it. Needless to say it was tightly packed, but organized chaos between us pilots. For those of you who don't know we are its also within class D. This particular airport also has a lot of moronic pilots who aggravate me, but the controllers are always cool as ice dealing with them. God bless them.

So one of the banners pilots, not a local guy, has a wingman who wants to join in formation with his company banner. The controller first tells him, unable while he's holding short, then in the downwind, then while he's holding just outside the airspace. The pilot then proceeds to be a dick to the controller stating he flew 3000 miles to get here only to have the controller not let him do his job. So wingman asks in an obvious aggravated tone, "whats the problem, this was coordinated before hand." Tower says, no it wasn't, call the tower chief via land line and sort it out. This is also a very busy frequency trying to get a plethora of students and recreational pilots in and out of San Diego's main GA airport. Tower finally tells him to either land full stop or exit his airspace immediately.

Since wingman didn't get the message the first 10 times, he went back to his orbit area just outside the airspace.

For whatever reason, wingman then says with his best honey-I'm-sorry voice please about 15 times, "for the final time" to get just one orbit with his banner friend. Tower, who actually has a heart, says "1 orbit then exit"

Wingman proceeds into our organized chaos, and forms up on his buddy. I'm directly behind him in the mess and watch as he completes his first orbit expecting him to exit. Tower reminds him he was only cleared ONE orbit. He says, "yes I know I'm doing a full circuit."

So two "circuits" later he leaves with me wanting to punch him in the face.

Whoever you are 6WM you sir are a moron.

Okay end rant.

Fly safe folks.
 

ladder360

Well-Known Member
Wow! What an ass! The controllers over there do a pretty good job at dealing with the plethora of morons.

Sounds like a cool gig you did over there. You doing that for the playoff game on Saturday too? What plane are you in?
 

Nark

Macho Superpilot
Safety.

Picture, if you will, a mile orbit filled with 4 birds (not including the blimp) moving extremely slow. Downwind to base cuts right in that orbit on the shorter of the parallels, which requires a short approach for whomever is in that circuit. That little piece of aerial real estate is extremely busy.

I'm willing to bet that their is also an SOP stating maximum number of birds orbiting the stadium, but that's not my point. This guy was a giant horses ass.

When ATC whacks your pee-pee take it like a man. I wish there was tapes of this boondoggle.
 

Firebird2XC

Well-Known Member
Safety.

Picture, if you will, a mile orbit filled with 4 birds (not including the blimp) moving extremely slow. Downwind to base cuts right in that orbit on the shorter of the parallels, which requires a short approach for whomever is in that circuit. That little piece of aerial real estate is extremely busy.

I'm willing to bet that their is also an SOP stating maximum number of birds orbiting the stadium, but that's not my point. This guy was a giant horses ass.

When ATC whacks your pee-pee take it like a man. I wish there was tapes of this boondoggle.

If it was on an ATC frequency, especially a tower, there probably were. It's my understanding all ATC freqs are recorded as SOP nowadays.
 

RWH1986

Some Guy
Nice Pics. You fly out of Montgomery Field? I did a cross country there about a month ago when it was cloudy so I couldnt see all the sights but the tower there wasnt to happy. They told me to follow a cessna that departed before me and he dissappeared into the clouds so I turned downwind and let them know I lost the cessna and needed further directions to remain VFR. So I guess I could be counted as one of the morons. haha.
 

SRA_kbad

Scooter Trash!!!
The Montgomery Controllers have always been great to me when I was around those parts. Koodos to them for not giving in to this arrogent pr*ck. I sure ran in to my fair share of em' over at Gillespie. They get real boring real quick.

Also, a great shot of Jack Murphy Stadium!!! aka... "qualcomm"
 

SafetyEngineer

New Member
Not to be a butthead or to seem like I am being anything less than trying to answer your question, but Hacker15E, the controllers have to monitor and control aircraft in their airspace. I know for a fact San Diego is very, very busy. In addition to the professionals flying the game, that field has an air school and many student pilots. The controllers see the big picture to where the pilot wanting to fly formation only sees a smaller picture. This is for safety. As lessons learned by PSA 182 and Aeromexico flight 498. PSA 182 was in San Diego. An extreme price to pay to learn a lesson. Also as it has been said, the pilot was rude and pushy. This tells me a lot about his attitude for safe flying. ATC has a big job to do and they play a major role today in safe aircraft movement around their areas of control and TCA.
On another note, GREAT PICTURES! :nana2:
Man that looks like a spectacular view. You have a great gig.
Fly safe and keep the morons to your six. :rawk:
 

ladder360

Well-Known Member
Nice Pics. You fly out of Montgomery Field? I did a cross country there about a month ago when it was cloudy so I couldnt see all the sights but the tower there wasnt to happy. They told me to follow a cessna that departed before me and he dissappeared into the clouds so I turned downwind and let them know I lost the cessna and needed further directions to remain VFR. So I guess I could be counted as one of the morons. haha.
I don't get the impression they get too irritated by people clarifying and communicating in the interest of safety. If I were hearing your transmission, it doesn't sound like you would be considered amongst the morons. There's a lot of class B and class D airspace in the vicinity and the morons are the ones who remain oblivious to it and put themselves in the middle of someone's pattern (Montgomery, Miramar or Lindbergh) or in Bravo without the proper clearance. A great example is the guy who was aimlessly zigzagging around in the glideslope when I was on final comming back from NJC back in October - THAT was a moron!

Qualcomm is on the fringe of MYF's pattern for 28L. Not a big deal if the pilots around Qualcomm are competent and aware. Put a wild card (like the one Chris is describing) in there and it can open up disasterous posibilities.
 

Hacker15e

Dunning–Kruger Observer
The controllers see the big picture to where the pilot wanting to fly formation only sees a smaller picture. This is for safety.
I don't agree with this at all.

The role of the lead aircraft is to clear for the formation, so a formation is just as able to see-and-avoid as a single ship. True, that wingman's situational awareness is reduced, but his only job is to remain clear of his leader.
 

SafetyEngineer

New Member
With all due respect Hacker15E, aircraft movement within the TCA is the responsibility of the controllers. I understand the wingman’s position on his duties, but again he is involved with a relatively small amount of information. San Diego is a very busy airspace with 3 major fields in the area. Again, I am not slamming you or trying to question you as a pilot at all. What I have gathered, you are a military pilot stationed overseas, and I respect that a lot, being a US Navy Veteran that fought in Desert Strom. But, unless I am mistaken, the point of this post was 1) the pilot was pushy and rude to the air traffic controller, 2) he didn’t follow a plan he and the controller set by flying more orbits than prescribed, 3) and he obviously made the other pilots (or at least one) that was authorized to be there very uncomfortable by his actions. I could quote so many mid air collisions that would take up this entire page, but I won’t. When military pilots fly formation it is spectacular and breath taking, but my main point is the air traffic controllers know what is currently going on and in some cases can preplan for events that may happen soon. I am not slamming the right for you guys to fly formation, just pointing out that if clearance is denied, there is a reason. PSA flight 182 involved a student pilot flying a Cessna 172 from Montgomery field. Again, I say this with respect and I don’t want you to feel like I am slamming anyone.


On a sidebar, I want to thank you Hacker15E for your service to your country. You provide a honorable service and you are the strength this country is counting on. Thank you for your sacrifices and for hard work. (If I am wrong about your service in the military, forgive me. I am just assuming you are in the military from your previous posts.)

In closing, I want to stress again that there is nothing personal against you or anyone else. My point is air traffic control has a specific job to do and they are tasked with evaluating traffic and hazards involved with requests coming in.


On the side of the pilot involved with this post, I acknowledge and praise him for contacting ATC. I know of a lot of pilots who would not have done that and just jumped in formation no matter what the situation was. So I wouldn’t call him a moron, he thought enough ahead to at least establish contact. My beef is that he couldn’t accept no for an answer and when he did get clearance he didn’t stick with the flight plan. That’s all.


Respectfully,


Safety Engineer


Fly safe and hopefully somewhere you can enjoy the view! :rawk:
 

Hacker15e

Dunning–Kruger Observer
All that is valid...I was just wondering what business it is of the tower controller if two aircraft want to join up. Unless it involves clearance into or out of that controller's airspace, I just don't see the issue. If anything, two aircraft joining up should *lessen* the task of the controller because what was two separate aircraft that needed attention become one single flight.

I understand that's not the point of the original post, nor of many of the comments in this thread--it was just a side question I had.

None of this is personal, natch. We're able to have some great and civilized discussions on JC, which is something I really love about it.

And thank YOU for your service, too!
 

SteveC

Really?
Staff member
All that is valid...I was just wondering what business it is of the tower controller if two aircraft want to join up. Unless it involves clearance into or out of that controller's airspace, I just don't see the issue.
I think the OP said it was in that tower's Class D airspace.
 

germb747

Well-Known Member
A formation is a single blip on ATC radar; the wingmen squawk standby. Let's see how my memory is--a "standard formation" is +/- 100 feet and within one mile of lead, right? So the formation would be getting the same radar separation from other aircraft in the area, although ATC is not responsible for separating aircraft within the flight. The only time it really becomes an issue for ATC is if they takeoff separately and rejoin enroute or if they split up prior to landing.

Any controllers care to comment? To what extend does it matter to you that you happen to be working a two ship, four ship, etc?
 
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