PUBNAT 5- Announcement ending 7/31

I understand that rumor mills are suck-y...but it's just part of a forum

Like everyone else I'm stumbling in the dark and have no way to know how to go about even starting to find a light switch. The FAA gives almost zero info on the process and the only way I have developed the knowledge I have is by reading what other people have found out. That's why we're here...to share our information. People are not posting what they have heard as true...they are just passing the information along. Take it or leave it. Honestly...I want to hear ALL the rumors. Instead of me getting one piece of wrong information by personally calling HR, I get dozens of pieces of wrong information from everyone calling HR and I can figure out what seems the most plausible and maybe distill some truthishness.
 
Like everyone else I'm stumbling in the dark and have no way to know how to go about even starting to find a light switch. The FAA gives almost zero info on the process and the only way I have developed the knowledge I have is by reading what other people have found out. That's why we're here...to share our information. People are not posting what they have heard as true... ...yes they are... they are just passing the information along. Take it or leave it. Honestly...I want to hear ALL the rumors. Instead of me getting one piece of wrong information by personally calling HR, I get dozens of pieces of wrong information from everyone calling HR and I can figure out what seems the most plausible and maybe distill some truthishness. ...but how is that more helpful? so instead of one wrong piece you want five wrong pieces? it's still wrong.

Which would you rather have... ten pieces of untrustworthy information, or one that is reliable and truthful? Which one is more helpful?

As long as people continue to post up and remark endlessly on what I heard from this guy who spoke with some lady who was in bed with a dude who once spoke to somebody at OKC, you're going to have to deal with useless rumors that detract from finding real, helpful information. The main reason I find myself spending less and less time at JC these days (and more at a certain other ATC forum) is just that -- I don't really care to sift through several threads worth of "HIRING FREEZE!!!!!" garbage to get down to helpful content that can help me get into the career I want.

Contrary to what someone else said a few posts back, we DO know something about this process. Actually, we know a whole lot about it. But the useful information is obscured by people who're willing to buy into misunderstood garbage or unfounded speculation.

I understand that rumor mills are suck-y...but it's just part of a forum

It doesn't need to be. It's just become that way around here.
 
See, that's not a smart way to go about it. Which would you rather have... ten pieces of untrustworthy information, or one that is reliable and truthful? Which one is more helpful?

As long as people continue to post up and remark endlessly on what I heard from this guy who spoke with some lady who was in bed with a dude who once spoke to somebody at OKC, you're going to have to deal with useless rumors that detract from finding real, helpful information. The main reason I find myself spending less and less time at JC these days (and more at a certain other ATC forum) is just that -- I don't really care to sift through several threads worth of "HIRING FREEZE!!!!!" garbage to get down to helpful content that can help me get into the career I want.

Contrary to what someone else said a few posts back, we DO know something about this process. Actually, we know a whole lot about it. But the useful information is obscured by people who're willing to buy into misunderstood garbage or unfounded speculation.
:yeahthat:
 
Of course I would rather have 1 piece of reliable, truthful information...but I think we've seen that that almost doesn't exist. Even from the source. I do want to hear what everyone is hearing and I can use my own judgment to decide what is probable.

There are people on this forum who, if they had accepted what HR actually told them...from the horses mouth, would but up a creek right now.

The reason why people say "I heard this from my aunts bosses brother" is because they are not claiming it to be truth and they don't want to be panned if it turns out to be wrong...they just want to let people know. They are being forthcoming about the reliability from the get go. I prefer this over people who say "A credible source told me." I still want to read this even if it is hearsay. If you don't want to read what has already been identified as hearsay...then don't

Shouldn't we be yelling at the people who are going about believing this info...not the people who post it?

forum: b: a public meeting place for open discussion c: a medium (as a newspaper or online service) of open discussion or expression of ideas
 
Of course I would rather have 1 piece of reliable, truthful information...but I think we've seen that that almost doesn't exist. Even from the source. I do want to hear what everyone is hearing and I can use my own judgment to decide what is probable.

There are people on this forum who, if they had accepted what HR actually told them...from the horses mouth, would but up a creek right now.

The reason why people say "I heard this from my aunts bosses brother" is because they are not claiming it to be truth and they don't want to be panned if it turns out to be wrong...they just want to let people know. They are being forthcoming about the reliability from the get go. I prefer this over people who say "A credible source told me." I still want to read this even if it is hearsay. If you don't want to read what has already been identified as hearsay...then don't

Shouldn't we be yelling at the people who are going about believing this info...not the people who post it?

forum: b: a public meeting place for open discussion c: a medium (as a newspaper or online service) of open discussion or expression of ideas

I follow your reasoning, but it's not how it ends up working in practice. While a few of us are going to be discriminating enough to see when something isn't reliable information and won't continue to repeat it, some -- I'd argue most -- will not. Then they'll take it, recycle it, pass it around, and we've got a big game of Telephone going on that's obscuring the helpful stuff.

Besides, most people who are posting up the garbage tend to believe in it anyway. Otherwise they wouldn't be posting it up.
 
Hey did I tell you I called ZLA and apparently the entire state of California is going to fall into the Ocean?

That's why they stopped hiring.

Actually I didn't call. My uncle told me that his co-worker's son called, but hey...you know...he's a reliable guy.
 
I follow your reasoning, but it's not how it ends up working in practice. While a few of us are going to be discriminating enough to see when something isn't reliable information and won't continue to repeat it, some -- I'd argue most -- will not. Then they'll take it, recycle it, pass it around, and we've got a big game of Telephone going on that's obscuring the helpful stuff.

Besides, most people who are posting up the garbage tend to believe in it anyway. Otherwise they wouldn't be posting it up.
Hey guys, I am a new guy here but couldn't resist replying to this..... I have to agree that most people in the world are not intelligent enough to take information, filter it, and determine if it is credible or not but I also have to say that if you are intelligent enough to have taken and passed the AT-SAT, intelligent enough to find this forum, and are intelligent enough to actually sign up and post messages then I think it is fair to say that you are capable of figuring out what is credible info and what is not! In addition.......If there are people in here that can't figure that out, well......that is there problem. Kinda harsh but that is my thinking. Nice to meet all of you by the way!
 
Here is an article I found online. This is fact and trustworthy! According to this FAA is still hiring currently and has no plans of a freeze!


FAA Faces Rising Trainee Numbers in Controller Ranks

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/aw022309p3.xml&headline=FAA%20Faces%20Rising%20Trainee%20Numbers%20in%20Controller%20Ranks&channel=awst

Feb 22, 2009
By Adrian Schofield



The FAA is hiring thousands of air traffic controllers to stay ahead of a spike in retirements, but this is raising new concerns about an increasingly inexperienced workforce. Trainees now comprise a quarter of the U.S. controller staff - up to half at some facilities - and this ratio is set to rise further.

Government watchdog agencies admit the FAA has proved skeptics wrong by mounting a successful hiring campaign. However, in solving one problem the FAA has created another. Veteran controllers are being replaced by recruits who need further on-the-job training before becoming fully certified. "We do have concerns - not over the total size of the workforce, but over the skill level and training level" of the new controllers, says U.S. Transportation Dept. Inspector General Calvin Scovel.

Although the FAA is confident the rising number of trainees is not causing safety problems, this issue will ensure the controller workforce remains a political football for years to come.

The genesis of the staffing problem is the national controller strike of 1981, during which then-President Ronald Reagan locked out the strikers, then fired them. A new class of controllers was hired and trained, but those workers are now hitting retirement age at around the same time. After much prodding by the controllers' union and Congress, the FAA recognized the approaching crisis and began a hiring drive to replenish its ranks.

The agency exceeded its hiring target for Fiscal 2008 and is on track to do the same for Fiscal 2009, according to the FAA's acting assistant administrator for policy, Nancy LoBue. The agency may have passed the peak of the retirement bubble, as the attrition rate is starting to level out, LoBue says. Former acting Administrator Robert Sturgell believes that while there are some facilities that must be watched carefully, the overall staffing situation is adequate.

Scovel says the FAA has "done what I can only say is a remarkable job in hiring replacements for controllers who have decided to leave." Almost 5,000 controllers - more than a third of the total - have left since 2005, but the FAA "has managed to hire up" and now has 270 controllers more than it had in 2004, Scovel notes.

The bad news, however, is the loss of experience in the workforce. Overall, controllers still in trainee status represent nearly 26% of the total, a significant increase from the 15% share in 2004, Scovel says. Numbers vary according to facility: there are no trainees at the Pittsburgh tower, but 47% of controllers at the Orlando tower are still in training. Scovel highlights the Southern California terminal radar approach control, where there will be almost 100 trainee controllers this year, about 40% of the total.

Training and certifying controllers will continue to be a challenge for the agency, Scovel points out. Through 2017, the FAA will have hired about 17,000 new controllers, and it currently takes them nearly three years to become fully certified.

Patrick Forrey, president of the National Air Traffic Controllers Assn. (Natca), says the crucial point is not how many controllers are being hired, but "how qualified they are and how successful they will be in training." The ATC system is being "clogged with trainees," and the ratio of new recruits will continue to grow, Forrey says.

Natca and the FAA disagree over how many of the new recruits have been fully certified, but it is clear that it is a relatively small proportion of the total hired. Forrey says the problem is not the quality of the recruits. "We want them to be put in a situation where they have the best opportunity to succeed, and that's not being done," he says. Trainees are increasingly being placed in the largest and busiest facilities that aren't properly equipped for training.

The union says an unpopular contract imposed on controllers in 2006 was a major cause of the retirement spike. The contract removed opportunities for veterans to increase their pay, giving them less incentive to stay on. If the FAA and controllers return to the table to renegotiate the contract, it would stem future losses, Forrey says. House lawmakers have introduced an FAA reauthorization bill that would reopen the Natca contract, but Republicans claim this would cost too much.

Staffing challenges are also arising in other areas. The Government Accountability Office does not believe the FAA has enough skilled technical workers to roll out crucial NextGen modernization programs. The GAO estimates the agency will require 350 additional technical staff, systems engineers and contract management experts over the next two years to manage NextGen implementation. LoBue admits that "we're concerned about staff with technical skills . . . . We see a shortage coming, as do all technical-oriented industries."
 
I know people on here say that the hiring people never see your actual AT-SAT score, but I was talking to the guy I know who works at the facility near me and he told me that the training manager had in fact already seen my score and ASAP application and that I was "on their radar." He told me that the manager had been talking to people to find out about any local people who had applied, and that when he brought me up he said they already knew about me. Has anyone else heard of something like this?
 
I know people on here say that the hiring people never see your actual AT-SAT score, but I was talking to the guy I know who works at the facility near me and he told me that the training manager had in fact already seen my score and ASAP application and that I was "on their radar." He told me that the manager had been talking to people to find out about any local people who had applied, and that when he brought me up he said they already knew about me. Has anyone else heard of something like this?

I haven't heard about this, but here is what I know. I visited my facility of choice a few weeks back, and had a great meet and greet/tour with the Training Manager, and also spoke to the regional hub manager for 10 minutes. Here is what they both told me...

They have an "idea" of what type of person and background they want at their facility, and also have the ability to request individuals for their particular facility if they really like what they see when you toured or however you know them. But, it is up to OKC selection panel to get to your name in the stack of applications to get selected. If they never get to your name, or get to it and the facility is already full, then you are out of luck, unfortunately. They said that is the screwy part of the whole process and it needs to be changed. OKC will rate your application. They look at your entire application and AT-SAT score to determine competitiveness and where you stand among others in the particular state you selected (regarding AT-SAT score, I didn't ask wether they look at the score or Q/WQ category only). They also mentioned no Q apps are being selected at this time. If you have toured your facility of choice, ( I am assuming you have toured DEN ARTCC as I see you live in Niwot), and they liked you and your application, then they have the ability to request you...but, it is up to OKC form that moment on.

Anyways, that is what I was told when I met the two managers of my number one choice. We'll see what happens from here.
 
I haven't heard about this, but here is what I know. I visited my facility of choice a few weeks back, and had a great meet and greet/tour with the Training Manager, and also spoke to the regional hub manager for 10 minutes. Here is what they both told me...

They have an "idea" of what type of person and background they want at their facility, and also have the ability to request individuals for their particular facility if they really like what they see when you toured or however you know them. But, it is up to OKC selection panel to get to your name in the stack of applications to get selected. If they never get to your name, or get to it and the facility is already full, then you are out of luck, unfortunately. They said that is the screwy part of the whole process and it needs to be changed. OKC will rate your application. They look at your entire application and AT-SAT score to determine competitiveness and where you stand among others in the particular state you selected (regarding AT-SAT score, I didn't ask wether they look at the score or Q/WQ category only). They also mentioned no Q apps are being selected at this time. If you have toured your facility of choice, ( I am assuming you have toured DEN ARTCC as I see you live in Niwot), and they liked you and your application, then they have the ability to request you...but, it is up to OKC form that moment on.

Anyways, that is what I was told when I met the two managers of my number one choice. We'll see what happens from here.

Yeah, that is the facility I toured, and all that sounds pretty good for me. I actually know a few of the controllers there cause I work as a bartender currently, and a few come in fairly often. I'm fairly confident my application will make it in the stack to be looked at. I'm graduating in May and did well on the test, and I don't really know what else is considered. Aviation experience maybe? I at least feel I'll get thrown in the stack and from there hope that mine is near the top.
 
Yeah, that is the facility I toured, and all that sounds pretty good for me. I actually know a few of the controllers there cause I work as a bartender currently, and a few come in fairly often. I'm fairly confident my application will make it in the stack to be looked at. I'm graduating in May and did well on the test, and I don't really know what else is considered. Aviation experience maybe? I at least feel I'll get thrown in the stack and from there hope that mine is near the top.


Degree and WQ AT-AT score should be great for all of us... but there are a lot of people with a degree and high AT-SAT scores out there to compete with. I hope my background differentiates me a little from the crowd, but who knows how the OKC panel rates the applications. Lets hope near the top of the stack and go from there.

Good luck.
 
This isn't fact from this person or that, but I do know that over half of my husband's class had a referral name from a current ATC at their hiring facility on the form they submitted. Many are children of ATC and had referrenced their parents name. I have wondered if that has anything to do with the application/hiring process. I would be interested to hear what others think about that one.
 
This isn't fact from this person or that, but I do know that over half of my husband's class had a referral name from a current ATC at their hiring facility on the form they submitted. Many are children of ATC and had referrenced their parents name. I have wondered if that has anything to do with the application/hiring process. I would be interested to hear what others think about that one.

I put down two names on my later applications. I was picked up for PUBNAT4, not PUBNAT3. I think it may have been down on my paperwork for 4.
 
Hey guys, I am a new guy here but couldn't resist replying to this..... I have to agree that most people in the world are not intelligent enough to take information, filter it, and determine if it is credible or not but I also have to say that if you are intelligent enough to have taken and passed the AT-SAT, intelligent enough to find this forum, and are intelligent enough to actually sign up and post messages then I think it is fair to say that you are capable of figuring out what is credible info and what is not! In addition.......If there are people in here that can't figure that out, well......that is there problem. Kinda harsh but that is my thinking. Nice to meet all of you by the way!

Sometimes people are even intelligent enough to figure how to correctly use these three words in a sentence: there, their, they're

You tell me... LOL (but really I keed!)

PUBNAT5 types seem really antsy! I'm signed up for 3-7, have my PEPC next month, and hopefully I won't need to get as far as 5, 6, or 7.

This is really taking longer than it should. Feel sorry for you guys cause I know how it feels to just be waiting, and waiting, and waiting. My advice... take on a project. Learn something new. Read the encyclopedia at least once. Can't hurt, right?

LOL
 
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