Public perception of pilots...

msmspilot said:
I have pilots react with shock all the time that I'm flying single pilot IFR cross country with no autopilot or GPS. No offense to the guys on the board, but it seems like the military guys are the most shocked. Of course, I usually only see students, so maybe that has something to do with it.
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I flew T-2C Buckeye's, they had 1 Tacan and a UHF. Granted, as a stud, we couldn't go solo cross country but others had and did. Often though, civilians have better equipment than military aircraft.
 
///AMG said:
I think the public thinks everyone has a g1000. And specifically to the military, I think folks think our stuff is a lot fancier than it really is. Most pilots in general are baffled when I tell them we are tacan only as far as approaches are concerned.
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I thought tacans where vor's for the military; you just have funny icons for them on the low-level enroute and vfr charts.
 
beasly said:
I thought tacans where vor's for the military; you just have funny icons for them on the low-level enroute and vfr charts.
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Yes, they function more or less in the same way that VOR/DME works, with a few technical differences. We can't tune a VOR freq into the TACAN though.
 
One thing I've been curious about, what do fighter jets have for anti-ice/deice? Or does it just not matter?
 
UAL747400 said:
One thing I've been curious about, what do fighter jets have for anti-ice/deice? Or does it just not matter?
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The Hornet has inlet and pitot heats, that's about it. That and a very cranky windshield de-ice that I have only heard bad things about. We are not authorized into known icing per the big book, and treat it pretty seriously. Going fast helps, so as to prevent ice buildup under the LEX (ie low AoA) where it can fod motors, and otherwise, we just get above or below it. We do have lots of thrust to hold off the effects and get out of it at least.
 
beasly said:
I thought tacans where vor's for the military; you just have funny icons for them on the low-level enroute and vfr charts.
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For some who were raised on TACAN and specialized in instruments, GPS and modern avionics are, in some ways, a step backwards. The Air Force once had a few crewmen who could thread a fighter through the eye of a needle using TACAN on an HSI (I'm not exaggerating too much in saying that - results were beyond what computers can do even today). The Air Force debated the pros and cons of teaching their pilot corp these Zen-like techniques, or surrendering to GPS and new avionics. To those of us who watched the AF's decision to de-emphasize the 'challenging' TACAN fix-to-fix maneuver in their UPT syllabus, we groaned. To us, the TACAN fix-to-fix requirement was a crucial thread linking AF pilots to that dying skill. Now, it's pretty much gone I imagine. Maybe some Navy guys retain it, don't know.

Like real fighter pilots in the cockpit vs automated/RP drones, GPS and modern avionics can't quite duplicate the magic that the wizards of TACAN could perform.
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///AMG said:
The Hornet has inlet and pitot heats, that's about it. That and a very cranky windshield de-ice that I have only heard bad things about. We are not authorized into known icing per the big book, and treat it pretty seriously. Going fast helps, so as to prevent ice buildup under the LEX (ie low AoA) where it can fod motors, and otherwise, we just get above or below it. We do have lots of thrust to hold off the effects and get out of it at least.
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Figured as much. Wasn't sure if there was a "hotwing" on those things or not. I did notice that when there was still a fighter squadron in Fargo, ND that they didn't do much in December and January when it's IMC everyday.
 
BEEF SUPREME said:
But Qutch, the pilots in the ESPN commercial said "technology has been good to us."
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This subject of TACAN technology used to be my soap box when I was teaching at UPT and assigned to AF R&D. Still is really. I was part of the crowd who argued that surrendering these abilities to technology would relegate future pilots to the status of "aircraft automation attendants," and that the technology couldn't really replace the Zen-TACAN techniques, any more than drones can completely replace pilots.

This is a video that is shown to pilots attending the Air Force's Advanced Instrument School. It reflects the tension within the AF itself over decisions to replace time honored methods (like the TACAN fix-to-fix) with GPS and other technologies.

Google Search Term - "German Fix-to-Fix" (in case the video does not survive)
(my apologies for the cruel comments made about civilian/FAA governed pilots)
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BEEF SUPREME said:
That was hilarious, but WTF is QUEEPZILLA?
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Heck if I know. I tried to stay with the Zen-Tacan Wizards. To those guys, the computers were too slow and not accurate enough (still too slow even today with the best technology). It was a mark of shame to ask for radar vectors, consult a whiz-wheel or even pick up a pencil. Within seconds of a TACAN fix being issued, the aircraft was spun around and speeding towards the fix. Pinpoint accuracy even in hurricane force winds.
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I think TACAN is a good piece of gear, but for combat aircraft, you can't rely on TACAN alone for obvious reasons. That and we typically use the TACAN in air-to-air mode between members of the flight or for a tanker join or whatnot. GPS/INS combo if nothing else frees up some brain cells when mission related tasks make navigation and switching tacans and doing point to points impractical.....that and I doubt too many threat nations are willing to provide tacans for us :)
 
Qutch said:
This subject of TACAN technology used to be my soap box when I was teaching at UPT and assigned to AF R&D. Still is really. I was part of the crowd who argued that surrendering these abilities to technology would relegate future pilots to the status of "aircraft automation attendants," and that the technology couldn't really replace the Zen-TACAN techniques, any more than drones can completely replace pilots.

This is a video that is shown to pilots attending the Air Force's Advanced Instrument School. It reflects the tension within the AF itself over decisions to replace time honored methods (like the TACAN fix-to-fix) with GPS and other technologies.

Google Search Term - "German Fix-to-Fix" (in case the video does not survive)
(my apologies for the cruel comments made about civilian/FAA governed pilots)
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Those that master their craft with less are better. This is true in every single other field, aviation is no different. Yes, it's incredibly rare having a "poo hitting the fan" day, but when that day happens the guys that have worked with less before will overcome. Probably without anyone in back being the wiser. Those that are hopelessly reliant on technology will have a hard time or will fail altogether.
 
///AMG said:
I think TACAN is a good piece of gear, but for combat aircraft, you can't rely on TACAN alone for obvious reasons. :)
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Alright junior. Them's fighten' words ! :) TACAN is my baby an no one bad mouth's TACAN and gets away with it on my watch.

Just kidding. But while drones and GPS do have their places, they still can't completely replace the ability of the human brain in the cockpit. Not for those who've seen what it can do. I'm sure you won't want to argue with me on the drone vs pilot issue, but you never got a chance to see what Zen-Tacan (temporal perception) trained pilots could do.


///AMG said:
...That and we typically use the TACAN in air-to-air mode between members of the flight or for a tanker join or whatnot. GPS/INS combo if nothing else frees up some brain cells when mission related tasks make navigation and switching tacans and doing point to points impractical.....that and I doubt too many threat nations are willing to provide tacans for us :)
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The premise behind the dying skill of Zen (temporal) TACAN navigation was that the pilot's brain has an under-utilized processor (like a dual core PC processor) which can subconsciously process the navigation and maneuvering tasks without bothering the conscious mind. And the subconscious mind can do it faster than a pilot can program the coordinates into a computer. In competition studies, the Zen-TACAN pilots had already spun their aircraft around and were headed to the join-up or fix before the whiz-wheel/computerized teams had even finished programming their coordinates. Using simulators to demonstrate, the Zen-TACAN pilots could complete back-to-back fix-to-fixes inside of an existing holding pattern (or other tight area), pulling G's at 70-80 degree angle of bank turns, crossing the tightly clustered fixes while still in the initial turns. Something impossible to do with a computer. It was like watching a pro soccer player maneuver his ball through a field of defenders. It's something you can't program into a computer. But the human brain can do it subconsciously, while you carry on a conversation with the guy next to you. It's called temporal (time based) processing.

As far as threat nations not suppying TACAN for our war planes, of course not. The Navy carries their own TACAN with them on board the Carriers don't they? And Forward Air Controllers could carry baby versions of it into the field in appropriate situations. Of course I'm not against GPS or INS. I'm just providing an example that I think is relevant to BEEF SUPREME's OP. As you saw in the video I posted, those of us who study this issue have been concerned for some time about the dangers of embracing new technology too quickly, and throwing out the old technology (like real pilots in favor of drones).
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Hacker15e said:
Which "military guys"? If it's students, as you say, then they indeed have an extremely limited understanding of, and exposure to, aviation in general.

My bet is that there are plenty of winged guys who would think that, though, as well.

I can't speak for the USN, but there is a big segment of the USAF "heavy" population that are pretty heavily reliant on GPS and autopilot starting at 400' AGL after takeoff and until just prior to the VDP on the approach. My bet is that they're the ones who would be shocked.

To any fighter or bomber dude, what you're talking about would be called "standard".
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Like I said, most of the guys I see are students, but I've had a few with an oak leaf or bird on their shoulder just shake their head at the pitiful equipment I have. Most of what I see are T-6s and T-1s. There are some T38s and T45s that come through.


cmhumphr said:
By the sound of freedom! At least that's what Rob Reider would say.
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And I can't possibly issue a single complaint about that!! :D
 
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