PSA Interview

[mtsu_av8er]

PSA turned me down today for 340TT, 45ME and no jet bridge course so I feel your pain. Got turned down yesterday by Pinnacle for similar reasons. Discouraging despite the so-called "pilot shortage."

David

Welcome to JC, David.

before I jumpe down your throat, I want to make sure I got this right.

You're discouraged because you got turned down by an airline with 340 hours in airplanes?

Let's think about this:

You're not even qualified yet to fly as the Second in Command at a Part 135 company.

With regard to general aviation, you're probably not insurable in most high performance aircraft, cabin-class twins, or anything turbine.

You've probably never even seen the nasty side of a thunderstorm.

You probably have no idea what severe ice looks like from inside the airplane.

You've probably never shot an instrument approach NORDO, in IMC.

Now, come on - do you really think you should be discouraged because you got turned down? Even if there is a pilot shortage, should airlines lower the standards that much? Honestly, how much could you really offer the skipper when the crap gets nasty?

 

[ljg]

Lloyd what does NORDO mean?

 

[EDUC8-or]

No radio.

 

[flhrci]

Welcome to JC, David.

before I jumpe down your throat, I want to make sure I got this right.

You're discouraged because you got turned down by an airline with 340 hours in airplanes?

Let's think about this:

You're not even qualified yet to fly as the Second in Command at a Part 135 company.

With regard to general aviation, you're probably not insurable in most high performance aircraft, cabin-class twins, or anything turbine.

You've probably never even seen the nasty side of a thunderstorm.

You probably have no idea what severe ice looks like from inside the airplane.

You've probably never shot an instrument approach NORDO, in IMC.

Now, come on - do you really think you should be discouraged because you got turned down? Even if there is a pilot shortage, should airlines lower the standards that much? Honestly, how much could you really offer the skipper when the crap gets nasty?

Thanks for the welcome, now on to the bitch session because apparently that is what this is now.

I know I have more to learn. I also know that I have more to offer than a brand new from scratch pilot straight out of ATP that just got his certificates within the last 90 days to include Private.

I am 36 years old. I am not an 18 year old kid that doesn't have a clue what responsibility is.

I have been a pilot since 1998.

I know that there are several regional airlines that ARE specifying minimums under 400 hours.

I know that the only thing I meant that is discouraging is that at least one airline I got turned down by says its minimums are one thing and then tells me something different via email. I didn't even get a chance.

I know that some of these airlines aren't telling applicants that they want transition/bridge training. If you can afford such training, it may only be good for one airline only and you may still not get hired.

I know that I spent a lot of money getting my instrument rating, and both commercial certificates over the last 4 months. I know I worked hard to get these certificates and all I want is a chance to learn and to prove myself. Apparently by your statements, I wasted my time.

I know I don't really want to work for the airlines and I would prefer something else. There is a really nice sounding pipeline patrol job available that pays good and would be good for time building. Haven't heard a peep. I would actually prefer to be a professional CFI as I have had the opportunity to teach in the past and enjoy it. But, I can't afford to get my CFI right now.

I know that a stupid bridge program costs upwards of $10000 more that I don't have to spend.

I know I am unemployed and need a job.

I know that even during the interview process that a perspective employer may not think I am good enough.

As for your part 135 SIC statement, there is at least one company I know of willing to hire low-time pilots, part 135 SIC allowing for time-building and will transition that person to left seat once the 135 minimums are met.

So let me see if I understand what you are saying. Apparently there is no way I can get any type of pilot job at my experience level. Apparently, I should give up and let everyone else applying get ahead of me. Apparently, I should just keep flying 172's until I get around 2000 hours or so like I would get the types of real world experience you are quoting.

My biggest point here is that we all have to start somewhere. Apparently you are a high-time, macho know it all pilot.

I will not give up! I am done defending myself here.

David

 

[mtsu_av8er]

Thanks for the welcome, now on to the bitch session because apparently that is what this is now.

Not a bitch session, my friend. Relax, pour yourself a Holiday scotch, and let's talk!

I know I have more to learn. I also know that I have more to offer than a brand new from scratch pilot straight out of ATP that just got his certificates within the last 90 days to include Private.

What do you have to offer? 90 more hours of total time?

I am 36 years old. I am not an 18 year old kid that doesn't have a clue what responsibility is.

The, you should understand that I'm not arguing with you - I'm just explaining a few things to you.

I have been a pilot since 1998.

I know that there are several regional airlines that ARE specifying minimums under 400 hours.

Yes - it's sickening, isn't it?

I know that the only thing I meant that is discouraging is that at least one airline I got turned down by says its minimums are one thing and then tells me something different via email. I didn't even get a chance.

Don't be discouraged - take it to mean that they think you aren't qualified.

I know that some of these airlines aren't telling applicants that they want transition/bridge training. If you can afford such training, it may only be good for one airline only and you may still not get hired.

This extra training crap is a waste of money - that's already being discussed in another thread, though.

I know that I spent a lot of money getting my instrument rating, and both commercial certificates over the last 4 months. I know I worked hard to get these certificates and all I want is a chance to learn and to prove myself.

The cockpit of an airliner is NOT the place to prove yourself . . .

Apparently by your statements, I wasted my time.

NOOOOOO - you didn't . . . not at all~ Just keep chugging along! You've got a long way to go, but the hardest part is over!!

I know I don't really want to work for the airlines and I would prefer something else. There is a really nice sounding pipeline patrol job available that pays good and would be good for time building. Haven't heard a peep.

Because you have a wet commercial certificate, and you haven't done anything yet to show a potential employer why you're qualified for the job.

I would actually prefer to be a professional CFI as I have had the opportunity to teach in the past and enjoy it. But, I can't afford to get my CFI right now.

With the right CFI and the right plane, you can get your CFI for less than $2500. Where are you located? I can help you find one!

I know that a stupid bridge program costs upwards of $10000 more that I don't have to spend.

See, you already know it's stupid . . . you're ahead of the game!

I know I am unemployed and need a job.

There are lots of jobs out there!

I know that even during the interview process that a perspective employer may not think I am good enough.

What makes you qualified to fly an airliner?

As for your part 135 SIC statement, there is at least one company I know of willing to hire low-time pilots, part 135 SIC allowing for time-building and will transition that person to left seat once the 135 minimums are met.

Tell me where this 135 company is that allows pilots with less than 500TT to fly in the right seat as SIC, so that we can report them to the FAA. That's illegal.

So let me see if I understand what you are saying. Apparently there is no way I can get any type of pilot job at my experience level.

Go get your CFI ticket(s).

Apparently, I should give up and let everyone else applying get ahead of me.

If they're more qualified . . .

Apparently, I should just keep flying 172's until I get around 2000 hours or so like I would get the types of real world experience you are quoting.

?

My biggest point here is that we all have to start somewhere.

We all started at the same place, my man!

Apparently you are a high-time, macho know it all pilot.

Not really high-time, but I have been called macho before . . . nowhere close to knowing it all.

I will not give up!

That's the spirit. You can't give up . . . you have to march forward.

I am done defending myself here.

There's nothing to defend!

David

Lloyd

 

[surreal1221]

oh my. . .so funny, on so many levels.

Nevertheless, meyers, thanks for writing about your experience.

 

[meyers9163]

So you never got there to interview? At least they were nice enough to let you know they werent interested. I know of quite a few airlines I've applied and had met their times and nothing back....... Now the minimums are pretty low all out there however if I understand right you have a IRA/CMEL? A CFI would help that greatly and get some mroe hours and or my buddy who did get hired at PSA with only his CMEL wet (which i signed him off for) he had nearly 1400/300 when he got hired and is in my class......

Anyways keep the hopes up and things will work out...... However aftere instructing at ATP i would refrain from bashing those who are able to get jobs out of ATP.... Many at ATP have nearly 500 at the minimum. There are the rare ones with less who pay for the jet course. However 500-600 is xjet mins and we all talk about how great they are. So they typically have a well rounded experience from dual cockpit to being an instructor for 200-300 hours of dual and typically in a seminole...... They pay a crap load and what not but for the most part those who go through ATP program are pretty damn good pilots..... I've trained a couple so i take that to heart.....

 

[flhrci]

Not a bitch session, my friend. Relax, pour yourself a Holiday scotch, and let's talk!




What do you have to offer? 90 more hours of total time?



The, you should understand that I'm not arguing with you - I'm just explaining a few things to you.

I have been a pilot since 1998.



Yes - it's sickening, isn't it?



Don't be discouraged - take it to mean that they think you aren't qualified.



This extra training crap is a waste of money - that's already being discussed in another thread, though.



The cockpit of an airliner is NOT the place to prove yourself . . .




NOOOOOO - you didn't . . . not at all~ Just keep chugging along! You've got a long way to go, but the hardest part is over!!




Because you have a wet commercial certificate, and you haven't done anything yet to show a potential employer why you're qualified for the job.



With the right CFI and the right plane, you can get your CFI for less than $2500. Where are you located? I can help you find one!



See, you already know it's stupid . . . you're ahead of the game!



There are lots of jobs out there!



What makes you qualified to fly an airliner?



Tell me where this 135 company is that allows pilots with less than 500TT to fly in the right seat as SIC, so that we can report them to the FAA. That's illegal.



Go get your CFI ticket(s).



If they're more qualified . . .



?



We all started at the same place, my man!



Not really high-time, but I have been called macho before . . . nowhere close to knowing it all.



That's the spirit. You can't give up . . . you have to march forward.



There's nothing to defend!



Lloyd

Lloyd,

I apologize for becoming defensive, i felt like I was being attacked. As for having 90 more hours, I see something like ATP as only teaching absolutely what is needed to pass a check ride. I do have over 170 hours of dual instruction in my log book, but only a quarter or so is primary, non-PIC time. The bulk of my piloting time is PIC, real-world whether under instruction or not, and to me that is more valuable than ATP's team concept where you fly as a safety pilot a lot, to my understanding.

I am not looking to prove myself in an airline cockpit, only through the interview process so I can be given a chance to show I am not incompetent and with further training could learn and handle the job. The last thing I want is to be put in or put someone else in a bad or dangerous situation because of myself.

As for the part 135 outfit I mentioned having low-time SIC's, it is Airnet. Here is a quote from their website faq's:

Q: What is the career progression for a pilot at AirNet Express?
Pilots not meeting the FAR 135 IFR PIC minimums gain experience flying with qualified Captains in the prop aircraft and earn a full time salary with benefits and a seniority number. Then, high-performance prop (PIC) to Learjet first officer (F/O) to Learjet captain (PIC).

Q: What is the entry-level, full-time pilot position at AirNet Express?
We hire pilots into the high-performance piston and turboprop aircraft. Pilots not meeting the requirements of PIC (135.243c) start as SICs in the piston twins.

I don't totally understand part 135, but it sounds to me like I can get a job with Airnet and build time, plus they say there are no minimums to apply any longer.

You said "Because you have a wet commercial certificate, and you haven't done anything yet to show a potential employer why you're qualified for the job." How do I do this when I am pretty well tapped financially and have bills to pay and can't get a flying job due to not being qualified. Can you say catch-22? I lost a 55k per year job this past summer with The Boeing Company. Without going into more personal detail, it was the fourth kick in the ass in the last year and time for a career change.

As for getting CFI, I don't think I can afford it right now. I am not sure. I already took out a huge loan for my other certificates. I took a big risk. Although I have been only applying for a week now, the outlook doesn't look so good to me right now with two negative responses as the others will probably do the same thing.

I can scrape together some cash to fly a little each month, but every day my recency of flight experience decreases and I will gradually lose the ability to pass the Commercial PTS maneuvers and so on and so forth, use it or lose it, basically.

Any way, I will find a way to make this happen.

David

 

[flhrci]

So you never got there to interview? At least they were nice enough to let you know they werent interested. I know of quite a few airlines I've applied and had met their times and nothing back....... Now the minimums are pretty low all out there however if I understand right you have a IRA/CMEL? A CFI would help that greatly and get some mroe hours and or my buddy who did get hired at PSA with only his CMEL wet (which i signed him off for) he had nearly 1400/300 when he got hired and is in my class......

Anyways keep the hopes up and things will work out...... However aftere instructing at ATP i would refrain from bashing those who are able to get jobs out of ATP.... Many at ATP have nearly 500 at the minimum. There are the rare ones with less who pay for the jet course. However 500-600 is xjet mins and we all talk about how great they are. So they typically have a well rounded experience from dual cockpit to being an instructor for 200-300 hours of dual and typically in a seminole...... They pay a crap load and what not but for the most part those who go through ATP program are pretty damn good pilots..... I've trained a couple so i take that to heart.....

If ATP students have 500 or more hours when they come out, then I am mistaken. All their literature I have read tells me differently. ATP has deals with some airlines which changes things.

I don't mean to offend any one. I looked at ATP and realized that I couldn't handle the expense and the shove it down your throat training.

I paid a crap load to get my IA, CSEL and CMEL and there isn't anything left. I did the best I could money wise and I think I got good training. They gave me a place to stay and I worked the ratings on a slower pace that I could handle. I flew nearly every day for 3 months to get it.

Now I am at a loss as to what else I can do besides apply for the airlines that have low enough minimums. I am doing the best I can to get past a really bad portion of my life for something better.

David

 

[mtsu_av8er]

No problem, man - that's what this forum is all about. No worries - that was definitely not an attack.

You're right - ATP does teach to minimum standards. And, nobody is questioning the quality of your time.

I stand corrected on a previous statement - you CAN legally fly as SIC under part 135, but with regards to Airnet's program, I wouldn't do that. There are some guys here that fly/have flown for them, and I think that most of them would say the same thing.

You said "Because you have a wet commercial certificate, and you haven't done anything yet to show a potential employer why you're qualified for the job." How do I do this when I am pretty well tapped financially and have bills to pay and can't get a flying job due to not being qualified. Can you say catch-22? I lost a 55k per year job this past summer with The Boeing Company. Without going into more personal detail, it was the fourth kick in the ass in the last year and time for a career change.

I feel your pain! It is pretty difficult, and it should be. But, if you've gotten this far, don't stop. You can see the top of The Reaper. Don't give in, or else it's all in vain.

As for getting CFI, I don't think I can afford it right now. I am not sure. I already took out a huge loan for my other certificates. I took a big risk. Although I have been only applying for a week now, the outlook doesn't look so good to me right now with two negative responses as the others will probably do the same thing.

You're right - you probably won't get many calls back. And, yes - it's a helluva risk. To make it in this field, you've gotta really want it. This isn't the last obstacle you're going to face and definitely not the most difficult.

I can scrape together some cash to fly a little each month, but every day my recency of flight experience decreases and I will gradually lose the ability to pass the Commercial PTS maneuvers and so on and so forth, use it or lose it, basically.

Keep flying . . . stay current and proficient. That's a start.

Any way, I will find a way to make this happen.

Like I said, read how others have done it on the forum. Look especially toward those that have been doing this for several years . . . Doug taylor, C650CPT, Don (DE727), ready2Fly, Velocipede, B767Driver, and many others.

These people know what in the he11 they're talking about! We don't all agree constantly on this forum about every little thing, but these guys did it right. They'll steer you the right way.

Stay on it!

 

[HercDriver130]

Keep plugging along ....

If you really want to do it.. you will find a way, apply to anyone...everyone.... Anybody who's minimums even sniff like they are close to what you have.... APPLY

second.... a group of pilots is that last place to look for sympathy...... everybody has a story to tell, and EVERYONE of us has felt like you do... I HAVE THE TIME...why didnt they call... because they are minimums my friend NOT absolutes.

p.s. sympathy comes between SHIAT and syphilis in the dictionary

In closing, do what ever you need to .....take a non flying job in the short term if you need to to pay the bills.... be persistent and GOOD LUCK.

 

[CirrusMonkey]

So you never got there to interview? At least they were nice enough to let you know they werent interested. I know of quite a few airlines I've applied and had met their times and nothing back....... Now the minimums are pretty low all out there however if I understand right you have a IRA/CMEL? A CFI would help that greatly and get some mroe hours and or my buddy who did get hired at PSA with only his CMEL wet (which i signed him off for) he had nearly 1400/300 when he got hired and is in my class......

Anyways keep the hopes up and things will work out...... However aftere instructing at ATP i would refrain from bashing those who are able to get jobs out of ATP.... Many at ATP have nearly 500 at the minimum. There are the rare ones with less who pay for the jet course. However 500-600 is xjet mins and we all talk about how great they are. So they typically have a well rounded experience from dual cockpit to being an instructor for 200-300 hours of dual and typically in a seminole...... They pay a crap load and what not but for the most part those who go through ATP program are pretty damn good pilots..... I've trained a couple so i take that to heart.....

Hey man, I sent you a PM on this post. December 5th is coming up real fast! See you in Dayton!

 

[Pistolpak1]

Keep plugging along ....

If you really want to do it.. you will find a way, apply to anyone...everyone.... Anybody who's minimums even sniff like they are close to what you have.... APPLY

second.... a group of pilots is that last place to look for sympathy...... everybody has a story to tell, and EVERYONE of us has felt like you do... I HAVE THE TIME...why didnt they call... because they are minimums my friend NOT absolutes.

p.s. sympathy comes between SHIAT and syphilis in the dictionary

In closing, do what ever you need to .....take a non flying job in the short term if you need to to pay the bills.... be persistent and GOOD LUCK.

That is funny and good advice. I knew several CFI's that had to bartend and flip burgers while teaching to make ends meet. Its hard enough not to mention having a family.

 

[t-cart]

David,Like the others have said,just keep plugging away.Get that nonflying job now if you have to,No shame in that. Just keep plugging away,and it will happen.Hang around the fbo and try to make some contacts,network.Hang in there and dont give up.Good luck, Loyd,You are going to make a heck of a Captain,Good luck,,,, FLY SAFE T.C.

 

[EDUC8-or]

After I decided I wanted to become a professional pilot I taught elementary school for more than 4 years. I had already been teaching and decided to switch careers. When I had 300 hours I still had 3 more years of flight instructing to go before I even started to apply at the airlines. I would often get frustrated because my day teaching job didn't allow me to fly as much as I would have liked, but looking back I wouldn't change a thing.