Proper ATC terminology

S

skysnake

New Member
Hi friends, I'm trying to see if the following is a correct, real-world clearance:

“AMERICAN 1468, CLIMB AND MAINTAIN ONE SEVEN THOUSAND, CONTACT FORT WORTH CENTER ON 132.02.”

Would a frequency change be given along with an altitude change or would these be two separate transmissions by a tracon controller? I am helping to develop some scenario based training and want to keep it real.

Thanks for any input.

Chris Boice
MD-80 CKA - American Airines
 
skysnake said:
Hi friends, I'm trying to see if the following is a correct, real-world clearance:

“AMERICAN 1468, CLIMB AND MAINTAIN ONE SEVEN THOUSAND, CONTACT FORT WORTH CENTER ON 132.02.”

Would a frequency change be given along with an altitude change or would these be two separate transmissions by a tracon controller? I am helping to develop some scenario based training and want to keep it real.

Thanks for any input.

Chris Boice
MD-80 CKA - American Airines
Click to expand...

yea its is correct and have done it many times,the only time i would split it up would be if there was traffic at 180 and i want to make sure i got the alt read back before i switched the A/C.
 
i should add that the rule of thumb is if you have more than 2 instructions to break it up into 2 messages.
 
:hiya: What about...

Shinyjet1456, right turn 240 intercept 27R localizer 3000 until established cleared ILS 27R 170 to JALTO.

or

(at FL280)
Shinyjet1456, descend and maintain FL270 cross 40 miles west of HAR at FL180 contact center now on 123.45

I seem to get multiple instructions in the same transmission like those a lot.
 
Thanks everyone for their replies. It's very important that we keep this dialogue in the simulator as close to perfect as possible.

Have a great day!

Chris Boice
MD-80 CKA
 
As a technique I don't issue a frequency change in the same instruction as an altitude/heading. The pilot could readback and follow the instruction incorrectly, but switch frequencies before I can key up and fix it. Then, because the pilot incorrectly read back the instruction, I could get dinged for not catching the readback error (even if I noticed it).
 
FM_Weasel said:
As a technique I don't issue a frequency change in the same instruction as an altitude/heading. The pilot could readback and follow the instruction incorrectly, but switch frequencies before I can key up and fix it. Then, because the pilot incorrectly read back the instruction, I could get dinged for not catching the readback error (even if I noticed it).
Click to expand...

I think pilots are pretty good about delaying a second or two to listen for a correction. Sometimes (Actually a lot of times)it gets too damn busy to give every frequency change independently.
 
Table Two said:
:hiya: What about...

Shinyjet1456, right turn 240 intercept 27R localizer 3000 until established cleared ILS 27R 170 to JALTO.

or

(at FL280)
Shinyjet1456, descend and maintain FL270 cross 40 miles west of HAR at FL180 contact center now on 123.45

I seem to get multiple instructions in the same transmission like those a lot.
Click to expand...

As far as approach clearances. Yes I'll give it like that. My reasoning being everything but the speed is required of me (except the intercept localizer part which is pretty redundant). I'll issue speed as well because some airlines / types if you wait, they'll be at 150 or so and give you a nice unable at the speed if you wait. That doesn't bode well for the guys in back.

I personally rarely give an altitude with a frequency change. Thats just my thing. I'll never give a squawk with an altimeter either. You can, its legal and I do on occasion, but only to pilots I know are either flying professionally or know the area/are being cleared to their filed altitude and are being climbed reference someone else and know that so they expect it. I ship aircraft pretty early though so even with the delay I don't feel like I'm impeding their climb.
 
skysnake said:
Hi friends, I'm trying to see if the following is a correct, real-world clearance:

“AMERICAN 1468, CLIMB AND MAINTAIN ONE SEVEN THOUSAND, CONTACT FORT WORTH CENTER ON 132.02.”

Would a frequency change be given along with an altitude change or would these be two separate transmissions by a tracon controller? I am helping to develop some scenario based training and want to keep it real.

Thanks for any input.

Chris Boice
MD-80 CKA - American Airines
Click to expand...

That is exactly as given (at DFW) going east (132.02) and west (127.0). North (124.75) and south (133.3) will more often than not be in two transmissions.
 
boondr said:
I think pilots are pretty good about delaying a second or two to listen for a correction. Sometimes (Actually a lot of times)it gets too damn busy to give every frequency change independently.
Click to expand...

I definitely understand. At my facility, our traffic levels don't normally demand that kind of consolidation, but I can definitely see how many facilities would need to apply these combinations to stay ahead.
 
FM_Weasel said:
As a technique I don't issue a frequency change in the same instruction as an altitude/heading. The pilot could readback and follow the instruction incorrectly, but switch frequencies before I can key up and fix it. Then, because the pilot incorrectly read back the instruction, I could get dinged for not catching the readback error (even if I noticed it).
Click to expand...

I agree.
 
It happens all the time, that I hear, and it works as long as the controller makes sure the readback is correct. Nothing wrong with it at all as long as the pilot comprehends what is being said...

Examples:
TRACON- "AAL123, turn left direct DBN, climb and maintain flight level two two zero. Contact Jacksonville Center 132.5"

Center- "AAL123, cross three zero miles from the Savannah VORTAC at one one thousand feet at two five zero knots. Contact Savannah Approach 125.3"


If I am giving someone a beacon code, I'll say, "N12345, Savannah Approach, squawk 4423." "N12345, radar contact, five miles southeast of Statesboro. The Savannah altimeter 29.92." I always give the altimeter after I get them to put some numbers in their box so I don't have to go back and say it again. Reduces the chance of them putting in the wrong numbers.

For an approach clearance, I'll say, "AAL123, six miles from Mavis, turn left heading one two zero. Maintain two thousand until established on the localizer. Cleared ILS runway one zero approach. Maintain one eight zero knots until Mavis." Then give them the tower frequency after they are established on the localizer...

If they have already been told to intercept the localizer, then I'll say, "AAL123, six miles from Mavis, cleared ILS runway one zero approach. Maintain one eight zero knots until Mavis. Contact Savannah tower 119.1."
 
It happens often when tower hands off to departure:

ATL or DTW, personal experience:

Takeoff clearance "air carrier 1234, RNAV to MPASS, cleared for takeoff 26L"

Departure hand off "air carrier 1234, RNAV to MPASS, contact ATL Departure 125.7"

Takeoff clearance "air carrier 1234, turn right to a 050 heading, cleared for takeoff 3L"

Departure hand off "air carrier 1234, turn right heading 050, contact departure 132.02"
 
How about when 30NM out and coming in at 2am:

"Cleared the approach, cleared to land runway 29R, cleared to taxi to the gate...Have a good night!"
 
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