Profile Descents

Polar742

Polar742

All the responsibility none of the authority
Quick question to our ATC gurus.

Now that we're getting all fancy with our STARs, and we have the Profile Descent, what exactly is the proper phraseology/clearance?

On the top of the chart it usually has a note along the lines of "ATC Phraseology: 'Descend via the yourmom one arrival, descend and maintain XXX'".

Usually all I hear on the radio is "Descend via the yourmom one". If I query if there is more to it, they just repeat the clearance.

Especially if someone works ANC, I'd be curious what they tell ya'll to say and what you guys(gals) expect when you issue that clearance.

I know that's new, and I'm not all that whip smart, so I just don't wanna sit down with a guy in a tight shirt and a short tie explaining why I did what I did, if you follow me. ;)
 
You can solve the problem by just remaining at altitude until ATC asks if you are going to make the crossing restriction. :laff:
 
Polar742 said:
Quick question to our ATC gurus.

Now that we're getting all fancy with our STARs, and we have the Profile Descent, what exactly is the proper phraseology/clearance?

On the top of the chart it usually has a note along the lines of "ATC Phraseology: 'Descend via the yourmom one arrival, descend and maintain XXX'".

Usually all I hear on the radio is "Descend via the yourmom one". If I query if there is more to it, they just repeat the clearance.

Especially if someone works ANC, I'd be curious what they tell ya'll to say and what you guys(gals) expect when you issue that clearance.

I know that's new, and I'm not all that whip smart, so I just don't wanna sit down with a guy in a tight shirt and a short tie explaining why I did what I did, if you follow me. ;)
Click to expand...

Cross GASTO at 10,000, descend and maintain 9000.

Actually, you're in a big ship, so are you guys using the AMOTT arrival (I forget which number it was)
 
Looks like the AMOTT6 has (AT 3000) at the ANC VOR. If told to descend VIA, on down to 3000, meeting any crossing restrictions on the way.
 
I hear "descend via the yourmom one arrival". That means I can descend at my discretion to cross the first fix at the posted restriction.
 
The issue is this: The chart has specific phraseology, including an altitude clearance limit from ATC. That clearance limit isn't ever given, only descend via.

OA: I'll just stay at alt, then do the old stall/spin to get down. :D
 
Polar742 said:
The issue is this: The chart has specific phraseology, including an altitude clearance limit from ATC. That clearance limit isn't ever given, only descend via.

OA: I'll just stay at alt, then do the old stall/spin to get down. :D
Click to expand...

Which arrival?
 
It's just "Descend Via .......... Arrival"

7110.65T 4-5-7-h
h. Instructions to vertically navigate on a STAR/RNAV STAR/FMSP with published restrictions.
PHRASEOLOGY:
DESCEND VIA (STAR/RNAV STAR/FMSP name and number)
TERMINAL: DESCEND VIA (STAR/RNAV STAR/FMSP name and number and runway number).
EXAMPLE-
“Descend via the Mudde One Arrival.”
“Cross JCT at flight level two four zero, then descend via the Coast Two Arrival.”
TERMINAL: “Descend via the Lendy One Arrival, Runway 22 left.”

NOTE: Clearance to “descend via” authorizes pilots:
1. To vertically and laterally navigate on a STAR/RNAV STAR/FMSP.
2. When cleared to a waypoint depicted on a STAR/RNAV STAR/FMSP, to descend from a previously assigned altitude at pilot's discretion to the altitude depicted for that waypoint, and once established on the depicted arrival, to navigate laterally and vertically to meet all published
restrictions. ATC is responsible for obstacle clearance when issuing a “descend via” clearance from a previously assigned altitude.
REFERENCE: FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 4-5-6, Minimum En Route Altitudes. FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 5-5-9, Separation From Obstructions.

NOTE-
3. Pilots navigating on a STAR/RNAV STAR/FMSP shall maintain last assigned altitude until receiving clearance to
“descend via.”
4. Pilots cleared for vertical navigation using the phraseology “descend via” shall inform ATC upon initial contact.
EXAMPLE-
“Delta One Twenty One leaving FL 240, descending via the Civit One arrival.”
REFERENCE: AIM, Para5-4-1, Standard Terminal Arrival (STAR), Area Navigation
Click to expand...
 
Polar, I've never seen one with a note about an altitude clearance limit and as such I've never gotten that as part of the clearance. Everything is "descend via that XXX arrival". I take that to mean, meet all the crossing restrictions (either at or above or below) and then hold the last altitude published on the arrival until further instructions from ATC.

Something of note that has been tripping up a bunch of our pilots recently... On the ELDEE into DCA the first fix that normally was part of the descend via clearance was at 15,000 feet. So normally you'd hit that fix and then start on down. In the last revision to the arrival they added a 15,000 foot note to the fix BEFORE this fix. The problem is guys are so conditioned to start descending after crossing the 15,000 foot fix, they see 15,000 on the screen and start dropping, even though the next fix is actually 15,000 as well. Apparently we aren't the only ones doing this as Potomac has said it has become an epidemic of sorts.
 
BobDDuck said:
Polar, I've never seen one with a note about an altitude clearance limit and as such I've never gotten that as part of the clearance. Everything is "descend via that XXX arrival". I take that to mean, meet all the crossing restrictions (either at or above or below) and then hold the last altitude published on the arrival until further instructions from ATC.

Something of note that has been tripping up a bunch of our pilots recently... On the ELDEE into DCA the first fix that normally was part of the descend via clearance was at 15,000 feet. So normally you'd hit that fix and then start on down. In the last revision to the arrival they added a 15,000 foot note to the fix BEFORE this fix. The problem is guys are so conditioned to start descending after crossing the 15,000 foot fix, they see 15,000 on the screen and start dropping, even though the next fix is actually 15,000 as well. Apparently we aren't the only ones doing this as Potomac has said it has become an epidemic of sorts.
Click to expand...

Yeah the ELDEE is a messed up one that has caused more than a few pilot deviations. They have special phraseology now that is specific to that arrival.

Use caution going into there as well (or adjacent airports) there is a certain controller in that area who is pissed at the world and will write up deviations like he is paid extra to do it. He also files reports on other controllers if he thinks they had an error/airspace violation (without checking to see if visual was applied or point out was made, etc.). There is always one.
 
boondr said:
... there is a certain controller in that area who is pissed at the world and will write up deviations like he is paid extra to do it. He also files reports on other controllers if he thinks they had an error/airspace violation (without checking to see if visual was applied or point out was made, etc.). There is always one.
Click to expand...

I have worked at places where there was at least one per shift.
 
boondr,

Thanks for that post.

I know I'm not totally crazy, and there was a note. I'll check when I go to work next month and see if it's still on there.

I appreciate everyone's input.
 
Polar742 said:
Quick question to our ATC gurus.

Now that we're getting all fancy with our STARs, and we have the Profile Descent, what exactly is the proper phraseology/clearance?

On the top of the chart it usually has a note along the lines of "ATC Phraseology: 'Descend via the yourmom one arrival, descend and maintain XXX'".

Usually all I hear on the radio is "Descend via the yourmom one". If I query if there is more to it, they just repeat the clearance.

Especially if someone works ANC, I'd be curious what they tell ya'll to say and what you guys(gals) expect when you issue that clearance.

I know that's new, and I'm not all that whip smart, so I just don't wanna sit down with a guy in a tight shirt and a short tie explaining why I did what I did, if you follow me. ;)
Click to expand...

Most of here at ANC won't call you out for missing restrictions on a profile decent. From what we've been told, the profile descents are to help you guys save fuel and whatnot.

The NEELL arrival is designed to link you up to the 7L or 7R ILS. All the crossing restrictions are 'at or above', unless you'll be landing on 14. The phrasology we've been told to use is 'After ELIAS/AINKK, cleared ILS 7L/7R approach.' At that point, I really don't care what your altitude at the fixes is, as long as you get down for the approach. I've had to break more than one guy out and downwind him because he dogged his descent and ended up being at 7000 on a 6 mile final.

As far as the notes go, I do seem to remember there being something else on the plate on one of the previous versions of the NEELL arrival, but the latest one only has one for expecting vectors to the ILS final approach course, and the 290 know speed schedule thing.
 
jcpilot said:
Most of here at ANC won't call you out for missing restrictions on a profile decent. From what we've been told, the profile descents are to help you guys save fuel and whatnot.

The NEELL arrival is designed to link you up to the 7L or 7R ILS. All the crossing restrictions are 'at or above', unless you'll be landing on 14. The phrasology we've been told to use is 'After ELIAS/AINKK, cleared ILS 7L/7R approach.' At that point, I really don't care what your altitude at the fixes is, as long as you get down for the approach. I've had to break more than one guy out and downwind him because he dogged his descent and ended up being at 7000 on a 6 mile final.

As far as the notes go, I do seem to remember there being something else on the plate on one of the previous versions of the NEELL arrival, but the latest one only has one for expecting vectors to the ILS final approach course, and the 290 know speed schedule thing.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply.

I just wanted to make sure I didn't miss something. Last thing I want is an altitude deviation due to a technicality.
 
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