Professionalism...is sometimes lacking.

Doug Taylor said:
I think ours would jump to 320 then 170 or something like that.

All these damned NOTAMS and instead of fixing the issue, oh let's just write a few gigabytes of text about it.
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Chart change notices piss me off. I know at some point in time I'm going to get violated for something and they're gonna be like "Its right here...in your chart change notices!" It WILL happen.
 
Polar742 said:
I don't believe anyone said "If you don not fly the aircraft exactly by company profile 100% of the time you are not professional".

What I took away from the discussion is that you should STRIVE to fly that way. And, in reality, 99.9% of your flying should be able to conform to how the company wants things done. Certainly, a normal operation, sans the fact you have passed a release out the door, or have no pax on board, is not a reason to ignore the company profiles. If you wanna test something out, do that in the sim. You're there 2X a year.

There is a time to fly off flight plan or company profiles. However, in 14 years of 121, I haven't run across a situation to throw the company profiles out the window. Of course the flight plan is a different story.

Now, to placate some of our pilots that may fly at a place that doesn't have a SOP, then you have a far wider breadth of operational scope. Do what you want. Those rules are loose for whatever reason. If the company doesn't give you guidelines, you have the latitude to use whatever technique you want.

I think it is very weak on a 121 pilot's part to not be able to fly within the guidelines/profiles almost 100% of the time. Even at my 2 carriers that were not close to the top-shelf, we had very specific SOPs that covered damn near every scenario. I'm not saying I liked the procedures, or even if they would be my preferred technique. However, the procedures were workable and safe, and I was able to safely and smoothly comply with them.
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I agree with you, basically 100%.

It seems as if the use of the term "profiles" has been all inclusive, covering all aspects of flight operations. I only fly the aircraft by company profiles, it is the way I was taught and it is just how we do it. Profiles include specific operations as specific phases of flight...Gear up, Gear down, Flap setting, respective callouts, etc.

Descent rates are not part of our profile. There are descent models that are present in our operations manual. The company models are for min fuel consumption, and as I pointed out before they are a bit steep and abrupt. No one I have flown with flies by the company model, we shoot for max comfort rather then min fuel consumption and try to meet in the middle somewhere.

As for airspeed, there are instances where we fly at airspeeds that are greater or less then our dispatched airspeed, for various reasons.

I am not going to make the PA announcement

"Good morning ladies and gentleman, thanks for flying By The Book Airlines. We are sorry for the delay getting off of the gate, however there was an airport emergency that halted operations. We know some of you have some very tight connections, however dispatch has filed us at M.73. Here at By The Book Airlines we do things by the book, so we won't make any attempt to make up the lost time in the air. We are certain that you will be provided adequate accommodations for the evening after you miss your flights, and with any luck you should be able to pick up your vacation a day or so late. Thanks again for flying By The Book Airlines, where company comes first."

I'm not going to be that guy, and the guys I fly with tend to feel the same. If we can plug it at M.82, and have a chance of helping someone make a connection, we are going to do it.

If trying to look out for the customer is not professional, then I'm not professional by those standards. Never the less, I don't post here in search of vindication or justification of any kind. I am comfortable with my multiplication of the aircraft, and the guys I fly with are as well. The company also seems to free of an issues, so by all measures I must be doing something right. That's all I am concerned with.
 
X-Forces said:
I agree with you, basically 100%.

It seems as if the use of the term "profiles" has been all inclusive, covering all aspects of flight operations. I only fly the aircraft by company profiles, it is the way I was taught and it is just how we do it. Profiles include specific operations as specific phases of flight...Gear up, Gear down, Flap setting, respective callouts, etc.

Descent rates are not part of our profile. There are descent models that are present in our operations manual. The company models are for min fuel consumption, and as I pointed out before they are a bit steep and abrupt. No one I have flown with flies by the company model, we shoot for max comfort rather then min fuel consumption and try to meet in the middle somewhere.

As for airspeed, there are instances where we fly at airspeeds that are greater or less then our dispatched airspeed, for various reasons.

I am not going to make the PA announcement

"Good morning ladies and gentleman, thanks for flying By The Book Airlines. We are sorry for the delay getting off of the gate, however there was an airport emergency that halted operations. We know some of you have some very tight connections, however dispatch has filed us at M.73. Here at By The Book Airlines we do things by the book, so we won't make any attempt to make up the lost time in the air. We are certain that you will be provided adequate accommodations for the evening after you miss your flights, and with any luck you should be able to pick up your vacation a day or so late. Thanks again for flying By The Book Airlines, where company comes first."

I'm not going to be that guy, and the guys I fly with tend to feel the same. If we can plug it at M.82, and have a chance of helping someone make a connection, we are going to do it.

If trying to look out for the customer is not professional, then I'm not professional by those standards. Never the less, I don't post here in search of vindication or justification of any kind. I am comfortable with my multiplication of the aircraft, and the guys I fly with are as well. The company also seems to free of an issues, so by all measures I must be doing something right. That's all I am concerned with.
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Not trying to be an ass but in our FM-1 it talks about if we are running late we should fly faster then the flied speed. Also if you know you are running late you should call DX and have them refile you and run the fuel numbers for a higher TAS. They can then send the numbers to the plane via ACARS. Most CA hate doing this so I end up doing it most of the time.
 
Gonzo said:
Not trying to be an ass but in our FM-1 it talks about if we are running late we should fly faster then the flied speed. Also if you know you are running late you should call DX and have them refile you and run the fuel numbers for a higher TAS. They can then send the numbers to the plane via ACARS. Most CA hate doing this so I end up doing it most of the time.
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Then don't be an ass....Ass! :D

Yeah, I know about the FM-1, and how well does contacting DX for a refile usually work? Usually by the time you get it you are already where you need to go, or damn near there. Kind of like getting the hold calculations after you have already exited the hold.

BTW. Hold did the lynching go? :p
 
The difference between M0.80 and M0.82 on a typical short-haul route doesn't amount to much anyway, but whatever floats peoples' boats. :)
 
There is a big difference between hot-dogging on an empty leg, and picking up the speed a few knots to make up for lost time. Keep it simple: Don't be a cowboy. You're not as good as you think you are.
 
Gonzo said:
Maybe but the difference between .69 and .78/.82 is a good amount.
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We just started a new fuel program over here which has changed our reserve fuel (still 45 minutes but calculated a different way) from 2000lbs on the -200 to around 1400 pounds, as well as removed holding fuel (unless legally required) and greatly diminished our tanker (play) fuel. All that means that unless we stick pretty close to the planned profile we are going to be diverting due to low fuel.

Our cost index numbers are ridiculously low (8 to 13) and spit back cruise speeds like .62 mach in the high twenties to low thirties. On a 500 mile leg it doesn't make a huge difference in our arrival time but it feels like we are barely moving.
 
BobDDuck said:
We just started a new fuel program over here which has changed our reserve fuel (still 45 minutes but calculated a different way) from 2000lbs on the -200 to around 1400 pounds, as well as removed holding fuel (unless legally required) and greatly diminished our tanker (play) fuel. All that means that unless we stick pretty close to the planned profile we are going to be diverting due to low fuel.

Our cost index numbers are ridiculously low (8 to 13) and spit back cruise speeds like .62 mach in the high twenties to low thirties. On a 500 mile leg it doesn't make a huge difference in our arrival time but it feels like we are barely moving.
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They are playing that fuel game with us too. I don't like to see landing with less then 2100lbs and will ask a CAs to bump it up to that if we are planned to land with less. Where I bid now it is mostly old school CAs and they like to see no less then 2500lbs.
 
X-Forces said:
Descent rates are not part of our profile. There are descent models that are present in our operations manual. The company models are for min fuel consumption, and as I pointed out before they are a bit steep and abrupt. No one I have flown with flies by the company model, we shoot for max comfort rather then min fuel consumption and try to meet in the middle somewhere.

As for airspeed, there are instances where we fly at airspeeds that are greater or less then our dispatched airspeed, for various reasons.

I am not going to make the PA announcement

"Good morning ladies and gentleman, thanks for flying By The Book Airlines. We are sorry for the delay getting off of the gate, however there was an airport emergency that halted operations. We know some of you have some very tight connections, however dispatch has filed us at M.73. Here at By The Book Airlines we do things by the book, so we won't make any attempt to make up the lost time in the air. We are certain that you will be provided adequate accommodations for the evening after you miss your flights, and with any luck you should be able to pick up your vacation a day or so late. Thanks again for flying By The Book Airlines, where company comes first."
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There's no reason to make that PA announcement. As others have mentioned, a quick ACARS message to your dispatcher is all that is necessary to change your filed flight plan and dispatched speed. Remember, there is a joint responsibility between the PIC and dispatcher under Part 121 operations. Simply doing whatever you want without notifying the dispatcher is not ok. He needs to be in the loop, because he is jointly responsible for the safe operation of the flight. Unless they have good reason, they won't argue with you about something like this, I'm sure. When I was an RJ captain flying stand-ups, I always changed the cruising speed. It's a stand-up. We're all tired, the passengers have connections to make, and getting the airplane there on time to be ready for the day's flying is the whole purpose of an airline operating stand-ups in the first place. So, I'd ask the dispatcher to refile us at 310/.80 instead of 290/.74. Never an argument. He'd refile us and send an ACARS with the revised flight plan and fuel burn. Took a few minutes, and it was usually done before the FO came back from his walkaround. And most importantly, everyone was in the loop.

As far as descent profiles, if they're only recommendations in your book, then obviously it's not a big deal. But if they're not just recommendations, then it's part of the profiles, and they should be followed.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
There's no reason to make that PA announcement. As others have mentioned, a quick ACARS message to your dispatcher is all that is necessary to change your filed flight plan and dispatched speed. Remember, there is a joint responsibility between the PIC and dispatcher under Part 121 operations. Simply doing whatever you want without notifying the dispatcher is not ok. He needs to be in the loop, because he is jointly responsible for the safe operation of the flight. Unless they have good reason, they won't argue with you about something like this, I'm sure. When I was an RJ captain flying stand-ups, I always changed the cruising speed. It's a stand-up. We're all tired, the passengers have connections to make, and getting the airplane there on time to be ready for the day's flying is the whole purpose of an airline operating stand-ups in the first place. So, I'd ask the dispatcher to refile us at 310/.80 instead of 290/.74. Never an argument. He'd refile us and send an ACARS with the revised flight plan and fuel burn. Took a few minutes, and it was usually done before the FO came back from his walkaround. And most importantly, everyone was in the loop.
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You have never sent a message to our dispatch, trust me.

As far as descent profiles, if they're only recommendations in your book, then obviously it's not a big deal. But if they're not just recommendations, then it's part of the profiles, and they should be followed.
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Descent rates and angle are not part of our profiles.
 
X-Forces said:
Descent rates and angle are not part of our profiles.
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Usually it's a computed speed, if you have them. :p

We fly with a cost index of 60, but it's not uncommon at such a low CI to see descent speeds in the 280-290 range. In that case most guys manually bump it up to 300-310.
 
dasleben said:
The difference between M0.80 and M0.82 on a typical short-haul route doesn't amount to much anyway, but whatever floats peoples' boats. :)
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I agree, but at M0.72/M0.73 to M0.81/M0.82 is a sizable jump. Can mean a lot to the guy that missed his flight by 4-5 minutes.
 
X-Forces said:
I agree, but at M0.72/M0.73 to M0.81/M0.82 is a sizable jump. Can mean a lot to the guy that missed his flight by 4-5 minutes.
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True, didn't realize people flew around in the low 0.70s (or high 0.60s!). :) As long as it doesn't affect your reserve fuel (which it probably would...), I wouldn't see much of an issue.
 
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