Professional Flying

G

Greg Davis

Well-Known Member
I'm 21 years old and been involved in aviation for a year or so. I've graduated from an FAA accredited maintenence training school, and currently working on getting my A&P, as well as currently working on my PPL. From there I want to get my CFI and CPL. Possibly move up to flying charter/corporate and I have little interest in ATP/Majors.

How well would I be treated by companies (how hire-able will I look) without a degree, but with an A&P. I've talked to people saying that people who hire for flying jobs LOVE A&P's, but what opinions do you guys have?

NOTE: I don't really have a huge understanding of the different levels of commercial aviation. As I understand it, it goes CFI/Charters, Regionals, Majors?

Thanks for your insight and help :)
 
I work for a Charter/ Management company that also operates a full time maintenance shop and FBO with four full time and four part time employees. In this "small" business, a pilot with an A&P is more valuable than a pilot with a four year degree, because I fly two to three days a week and work in the shop for the remainder. With that being said, I doubt I will ever earn a six figure salary, but i am able to put food on the table not to mention the peace of mind of a fall back career should I ever lose my medical, God Forbid.
 
Lots of different options. I work for a charter company, but I wouldn't leave for a regional. :)

Just be flexible. I had a plan when I went to go fly at a regional airline that it'd be my last interview before my "career" job. After the furlough came around, I learned that aviation isn't always as easy or clear-cut as we'd like to think. Be prepared to move to keep a job, and make sure your enjoyment in the job comes from the work that you do, not where you believe you're at on the aviation food chain. Enjoy the journey.
 
The moving thing really makes my stomach turn. I'm planning on starting a family with the girl of my dreams someday, but as I understand it, family life is near impossible in the aviation industry. So I'm torn. Even I could, miraculously, stay in one place, the money might night be enough to support a family.
 
Greg Davis said:
The moving thing really makes my stomach turn. I'm planning on starting a family with the girl of my dreams someday, but as I understand it, family life is near impossible in the aviation industry. So I'm torn. Even I could, miraculously, stay in one place, the money might night be enough to support a family.
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It's not impossible. Plenty of happily married couples out there in aviation. Your wife will just have to be understanding at first in terms of your schedules and pay. These will improve as time goes on. Of course, if the possibility of moving or being away from home a bit would put a significant strain on your marriage, I think you should find something else that makes you happy. There's certainly more to life than flying airplanes; don't sacrifice your personal life for it. Ask me how I learned that lesson.
 
Greg Davis said:
The moving thing really makes my stomach turn. I'm planning on starting a family with the girl of my dreams someday, but as I understand it, family life is near impossible in the aviation industry. So I'm torn. Even I could, miraculously, stay in one place, the money might night be enough to support a family.
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That puts into question what the girl of your dreams is.

There are many ways in aviation to be able to afford putting food on the table and roof over the house. Does that mean you can afford a bentley or trips to tiffany's? No, but if you find a girl thats happy with what you're happy with then that's all that counts.
 
It's not impossible. Plenty of happily married couples out there in aviation. Your wife will just have to be understanding at first in terms of your schedules and pay. These will improve as time goes on. Of course, if the possibility of moving or being away from home a bit would put a significant strain on your marriage, I think you should find something else that makes you happy. There's certainly more to life than flying airplanes; don't sacrifice your personal life for it. Ask me how I learned that lesson.
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Well she's really supportive now. She loves going on Cross countries with me and stuff, but I feel like, her support level could change when we have a house payment, and kids to feed.
 
Greg Davis said:
Well she's really supportive now. She loves going on Cross countries with me and stuff, but I feel like, her support level could change when we have a house payment, and kids to feed.
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Of course she is supportive now, because she's got nothing to lose. She's your girlfriend, not your wife. She (or you) can walk away tomorrow without any problem. But get a few years down the road, when you own a home, have a child or two, and you've built up a nice little nestegg for yourself. That's where the problems will be, if there will be any. Because now she has something to lose. Once comfortable, people tend to not want to lose that comfort. And if she is like most people, she's not going to apt to be supportive if it means selling the house, moving away from the friends and family, etc.

An aviation career is notoriously unstable, often requiring moves and re-boots. I can't tell you how many people I know, people in their 40's and 50's who are on job number whatever, never owned a home, never set down roots, because they were always worried about their jobs going away. That's one of the reasons I got out of aviation. I didn't want to be those guys. To me that's no way to live.

The advice I offer now has nothing to do with whether you have an aviation career or not. It is true for any young man. You have no business talking about marriage and family until you have established a career, put some money in the bank, and generally proven yourself to be capable of supporting a family, whatever happens.
 
How is a house payment any different then monthly rent on an apartment? That really isn't anything to worry about

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If you are unwilling or unable to relocate that could potentially lead to career difficulties down the road. Depending on where you live. If you live near a major city, chances are you will have a better time finding work. If you live in Ellicotville, NY. Well, you best be willing to get the wifey to move.
 
Greg Davis said:
I'm 21 years old and been involved in aviation for a year or so. I've graduated from an FAA accredited maintenence training school, and currently working on getting my A&P, as well as currently working on my PPL. From there I want to get my CFI and CPL. Possibly move up to flying charter/corporate and I have little interest in ATP/Majors.

How well would I be treated by companies (how hire-able will I look) without a degree, but with an A&P. I've talked to people saying that people who hire for flying jobs LOVE A&P's, but what opinions do you guys have?

NOTE: I don't really have a huge understanding of the different levels of commercial aviation. As I understand it, it goes CFI/Charters, Regionals, Majors?

Thanks for your insight and help :)
Click to expand...

One thing that worked very well for a Colgan classmate was flying banner tow and then fixing them (A&P) once on the ground. I think it was 40 or 50 and hour to fly the banner (Long Island rates), and then 20 or 30 to fix on the ground. bbbbbbbbbaaaaaannnnnnkkkkk!

Do it!
 
Greg Davis said:
I'm 21 years old and been involved in aviation for a year or so. I've graduated from an FAA accredited maintenence training school, and currently working on getting my A&P, as well as currently working on my PPL. From there I want to get my CFI and CPL. Possibly move up to flying charter/corporate and I have little interest in ATP/Majors.

How well would I be treated by companies (how hire-able will I look) without a degree, but with an A&P. I've talked to people saying that people who hire for flying jobs LOVE A&P's, but what opinions do you guys have?

NOTE: I don't really have a huge understanding of the different levels of commercial aviation. As I understand it, it goes CFI/Charters, Regionals, Majors?

Thanks for your insight and help :)
Click to expand...

So your question is...? Get the degree vs. the A+P? If you want to stay in the A+P world, the degree is not important, obviously. If you want to eventually get to the Majors, it is. There are not a whole lot of places where you can do both A+P work, and fly, and have any type of long term job/location stability, there are a few, but they may not be where you live right now, so you may have to move to find one. How's the little lady feel about that?

Here's something to think about, right now you are pretty young to be making "Forever" type, long term plans, unless you really, really, really, love this girl and you both don't ever want to leave your home town. A lot of "stuff" (good and bad) is going to happen to you/her between now and 5, 10, 15 years from now, so be flexible or be miserable.

To answer your first question, yes, I would think most small charter/135/etc. type ops would value the A+P over the degree, and they might even let you fly their airplanes once in a while. I had a very close friend in high school who did just that for a few years when he was your age. BUT, doing both, he decided he liked the flying part better, so he left there for a steady job flying cancelled checks at night, then to a Regional, then on to American Airlnes, where he is today a 767 ER Captain flying to Paris out of Chicago. Oh, first he did get a 4yr. degree from Parks college while also getting his A+P and CFI.

He and his high school sweet heart broke up when he moved to Chicago, he later married an AA Flight Attendant and they have two beautiful daughters, (both at TCU today if any of you young studs are looking for love).

I broke up with my highschool sweetheart when I joined the Air Guard and went to Del Rio, Texas for a year. Actually she dumped me, the day before I was going to propose to her, because she couldn't handle the long distance relationship thing. Also at that time, I said I never wanted to live in a house with a white pickett fence or have kids. I wanted to live on a sailboat in the Keys and fly out of MIA. I really wanted to be Jimmy Buffett but he got there first. (that Prick!)

When I got home from UPT 18mo. later, she wanted to get back together. I said NFW, by then I'd seen too many other fish in the sea! 3 years later I married a Delta Flight Attendant and we live in a house, and we have 4 kids. So much for long term plans! The oldest two are twin daughters at Auburn if any of you young studs up that way would be so kind as to take them -both- (a pilot special, two for the price of one!) off my payroll.

The Moral of the Story? At 21 I had no idea what was actually going to happen in my life, long term. At age 51 I still don't but with me, Flying always came first, ahead of women, or job location. I chased that dream and it worked out ok, eventually. One thing they told us newb pilots in the Air Force, "Flexibility is the key to Air Power, now bend over..."
 
The truth is your going to talk to a thousand different pilots and hear a thousand different ways they "made it" in aviation, but that still wont help your situation because its 90% luck! You just half to follow your heart and learn to trust your gut instincts. If you want it bad enough you can make it happen. Perseverance, Fortitude, and out surviving the competition.
 
redwings191 said:
Assuming she flies along with you and your instructor?
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Yes

Of course she is supportive now, because she's got nothing to lose. She's your girlfriend, not your wife. She (or you) can walk away tomorrow without any problem. But get a few years down the road, when you own a home, have a child or two, and you've built up a nice little nestegg for yourself. That's where the problems will be, if there will be any. Because now she has something to lose. Once comfortable, people tend to not want to lose that comfort. And if she is like most people, she's not going to apt to be supportive if it means selling the house, moving away from the friends and family, etc.

An aviation career is notoriously unstable, often requiring moves and re-boots. I can't tell you how many people I know, people in their 40's and 50's who are on job number whatever, never owned a home, never set down roots, because they were always worried about their jobs going away. That's one of the reasons I got out of aviation. I didn't want to be those guys. To me that's no way to live.

The advice I offer now has nothing to do with whether you have an aviation career or not. It is true for any young man. You have no business talking about marriage and family until you have established a career, put some money in the bank, and generally proven yourself to be capable of supporting a family, whatever happens.
Click to expand...

This did not help my dilemma, lol

Here's something to think about, right now you are pretty young to be making "Forever" type, long term plans, unless you really, really, really, love this girl and you both don't ever want to leave your home town. A lot of "stuff" (good and bad) is going to happen to you/her between now and 5, 10, 15 years from now, so be flexible or be miserable.

To answer your first question, yes, I would think most small charter/135/etc. type ops would value the A+P over the degree, and they might even let you fly their airplanes once in a while. I had a very close friend in high school who did just that for a few years when he was your age. BUT, doing both, he decided he liked the flying part better, so he left there for a steady job flying cancelled checks at night, then to a Regional, then on to American Airlnes, where he is today a 767 ER Captain flying to Paris out of Chicago. Oh, first he did get a 4yr. degree from Parks college while also getting his A+P and CFI.

He and his high school sweet heart broke up when he moved to Chicago, he later married an AA Flight Attendant and they have two beautiful daughters, (both at TCU today if any of you young studs are looking for love).

I broke up with my highschool sweetheart when I joined the Air Guard and went to Del Rio, Texas for a year. Actually she dumped me, the day before I was going to propose to her, because she couldn't handle the long distance relationship thing. Also at that time, I said I never wanted to live in a house with a white pickett fence or have kids. I wanted to live on a sailboat in the Keys and fly out of MIA. I really wanted to be Jimmy Buffett but he got there first. (that Prick!)

When I got home from UPT 18mo. later, she wanted to get back together. I said NFW, by then I'd seen too many other fish in the sea! 3 years later I married a Delta Flight Attendant and we live in a house, and we have 4 kids. So much for long term plans! The oldest two are twin daughters at Auburn if any of you young studs up that way would be so kind as to take them -both- (a pilot special, two for the price of one!) off my payroll.

The Moral of the Story? At 21 I had no idea what was actually going to happen in my life, long term. At age 51 I still don't but with me, Flying always came first, ahead of women, or job location. I chased that dream and it worked out ok, eventually. One thing they told us newb pilots in the Air Force, "Flexibility is the key to Air Power, now bend over..."
Click to expand...

Noted. I understand 21 is young, things change, people change, yeah yeah, but that's no reason to not try to make it all work out right? I guess the thing is, there's no way to know how it'll work out until it happens right? :dunno:
 
That's right. As my old Chineese neighbor said, "You think you know. You no know!"

As someone up above said, Luck has a lot to do with it. Here's my what I think about Luck:

Luck is when Preparation meets Opportunity. Right now all you can do is work on the Preparation part, ie. education. So get your A+P, or get your CFI, or get a degree, or all of the above if you can, the more the merrier. But do all you can to improve your chances so you are prepared, then you can work on the Opportunity part.

And here's another tidbit; Opportunity doesn't just come along, you have to go out and find it.

"Do or do not, there is no try" Yoda
 
Greg Davis said:
I guess the thing is, there's no way to know how it'll work out until it happens right? :dunno:
Click to expand...

Never in a million years would I have predicted how the last 3 years of my life would turn out. In the spring of 2008 I thought I was going to graduate college, maybe flight instruct for awhile (this was when the regionals were hiring at stupid low mins), fly right seat in a CRJ, upgrade to captain, then maybe move on into management. My plan was to have enough seniority so I could hold a great schedule with decent pay. My girlfriend (at the time) was getting her doctorate in physical therapy so she could make all the money while I enjoyed my easy schedule as a senior regional captain. All set. WRONG.

Flight instructed for while. Check. Regionals started furloughing like crazy, economy took a dump. Spent 4 months sitting on a couch waiting for interested students to come in so I could take them on a demo flight. Might get to do a flight review or aircraft checkout here and there. Got laid off. Spent a year working at a college apartment complex as an office manager. Built up to 600 TT flying right seat pipeline patrol and skydivers in MN. Then I was offered a job flying skydivers in CA. Man, that sounded risky. This was a job I didn't even apply for. They got my resume through the grapevine. Found a room on Craigslist and two weeks later I was on the road. Built up to 1000 TT flying jumpers in CA then randomly met a guy who flies contracted Brasilias for the Navy. A month later he heard they were looking for another pilot, he sent in my resume, and BINGO, now I'm flying right seat in a turboprop with great pay and a Monday-Friday schedule.

What I'm trying to say is that no matter how much you try to plan, all you can do is make the best decision with the information you have at the time and the rest will work out. If you and your girlfriend want to make it work, you will find a way to make it work. Trust me. Been there. There are a lot of people who will try to warn you and discourage you along the way only because they're upset things didn't work out exactly the way THEY wanted them to. Just know that some situations are out of your control and there is nothing you can do besides make the best of it. You'll be fine.
 
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