Let's see here. If I may summarize.
- Increased oil prices.
- Aircraft acquisitions
- Major improvement to the school
(Do I need a
logo for the above listed questions? 
)
Pro Course now $45,000
- Thread starter S.T.Aviator
- Start date
Let's see here. If I may summarize.
(Do I need a
logo for the above listed questions? )Just out of curiousity, why would someone want to train in a twinstar? Isn't the whole point of training actually learning something? If I'm not mistaken, in a twinstar one merely sets the throttles to a percentage of power and the plane does the rest. Well, if you only want to fly twinstars I guess that's alright, but see if that "training" translates into flying seminoles, senecas, barons, apaches, dukes, twin comanches, 310's, etc etc.
BillErvin
Peddling as fast as I can
VERY good Point, I had a guy I flew with over in New Mexico CAP, he was a retired C-5 driver. He interviewed and took a checkride with an air ambulance company in Roswell, bombed it big time, Why? In his own words "to many knobs and levers"
anic: in a prop twin!!!Bill
Gonzo
Well-Known Member
You have to look at what is the next step for the student. Most if not all the people who go to flight academies plan to move on to a RJ. I ask yourself which one translates in to flying a RJ.
P.S.-I have 160 Hours in the BE-76 and now fly the twinstar.
BillErvin
Peddling as fast as I can
How about when that furlough comes, and our intrepid RJ Pilot has to become a freight dog to make ends meet? What would serve him better, BE-76 & PA-44 time or DA-42 time.
It would be a lot easier to transition from a duchess to a twinstar than the other way around. Technology is fine, but knowing how to fly steam gauges and other "old" stuff thats still out there and will be out there for a long time to come, serves me better.
But then again, your talking to someone who grew up in a J-3 Cub:bandit:.
Bill
BillErvin
Peddling as fast as I can
I'll beat him to the punch!
Oil? Since when does the price of oil have to do with rising gas prices? I believe it's a Mike conspiracy with Osama Bin Laden to raise prices for Mike's retirement home in the Bahamas. After all, I heard a rumor he had some island brochures on his desk.
Don't make me come after you man, I know where you work!!!! And I'll have Paul Dye let me in the back door he's got the keys:bandit:
You're right. FD's do have that clout, don't they? During one of our extended satellite breaks, he'll come upstairs and chastise me severely!
I'll tell him hello for you!
BillErvin
Peddling as fast as I can
We share the same affliction. The RV Series of airplanes, he has an awesome RV8 and his sweety Louise has an RV6. I'm building an RV9.
We've only met a few times, here at the Nest and at a few flyins. I know Louise better, she likes to play with rocks and hang out in caves (Geologist) If he scratches his head, just tell him I live next to Alex on Eagle Nest and he'll know who your talking about.
Small world Huh!!
We've only met a few times, here at the Nest and at a few flyins. I know Louise better, she likes to play with rocks and hang out in caves (Geologist) If he scratches his head, just tell him I live next to Alex on Eagle Nest and he'll know who your talking about.
Small world Huh!!
Gonzo
Well-Known Member
Let's see here. If I may summarize.. . .and you're passing these costs onto the consumer? Is that a legitimate business practice? Hmmm, some people comment so negatively about the equipment there, perhaps they should pay us to fly, ya think?
- Increased oil prices.
- Aircraft acquisitions
- Major improvement to the school
(Do I need a
Maybe lets take a look at your points.
I am going to use the price at the Jet Center (FS). Mike claims he pays less and is SS so my numbers will be higher.
A few points to keep in mind when you read the numbers are: Mike doesn't pay reimbursement for fuel on any XC. When setting his prices he knows the fuel cost I don't think ATP can. I do not know the price ATP pays for fuel. Keep in mind the ATP price includes all books and hotels on the X-C. At ATP you get less TT only 140 hours
The PA-44 burns more fuel then the BE-76
12/2002-$2.29 Pro Course 11/2002-25K ATP-32K
12/2003-$2.90 Pro Course 12/2003-30K ATP-35K
06/2006-$5.04 Pro Course 05/2006-34k+1500 Fuel Surcharge ATP-45K
05/2007-$4.47 Pro Course 05/2007-36K ATP-50K
01/2008-$5.80 Pro Course 01/2008-45K ATP-55K
With those numbers in mind let us look at your points:1) Increased Fuel, 2)Aircraft acquisitions, and 3)Improvement to the school.
Has the price of fuel increased? Yes, by about 153% man that sucks. I feel a better way to look at that number would be fuel cost to total cost. I am going to use 16 GPH for the BE-76 and 24 GPH on the PA-44. I have time in both and this is about the numbers I get.
11/2002 Aviator-about 30% ATP-about 24%
01/2008 Aviator-about 41% ATP-about 35%
I will give you that fuel cost has something to do with the increased cost, but now let us look at the increased cost of fuel in the big picture(your #2,3 Points).
You are 100% correct with it being ok to pass the costs of improvements on to the consumer. So let us take a look at what the consumer got for their 80% at the Aviator and 70% at ATP increase in price from 2002-2008.
ATP: Net gain of 20 PA-44's (New MSRP $450,000), 5 DA40's, 26 172's, 5 CRJ FTD's, 15 Frasca Truflite FTDs w/GNS 430, 5 Elite RC-1 Training Systems, opened new locations (all that goes with it)
Aviator: Net gain of two BE-76's(From Mike about $60,000) and loss of one 172.
Someone needs a new accountant and banker.
FYI- Skymates over the same time frame has only gone up 21% in price and has added some New aircrafts.
Gonzo
Well-Known Member
None of them are real twins. I can make a list of pros and cons for all three.
I have some J-3 time the only thing better is the Decathlon time.
To bad the J-3 at the aviator will more then likely never fly again.
BillErvin
Peddling as fast as I can
Try'in to pick a fight huh
Although I have to admit doing aileron rolls in a normal cub might be challenging
BillErvin
Peddling as fast as I can
That RV9 that you are working on better not be a RV-9A
Its a straight 9 with a sliding canopy! RVs look to cool as taildraggers not to build them that way:rawk: besides that how Van would want it!!
Back to AriBen vs. other schools.
I guess I was suggesting...that prices will go up the a few months ago. And everybody who runs a business can adjust prices as necessary. If somebody don't like it...just go somewhere else. But in the end: Every flightschool is run as a business. The owner wants to make money with it.
I would like to make some comments to previous posts. I have never attended Ari-Ben - though I visited a couple of times:
1. The old AllATP <-> Ariben Debate: ATP ...everybody knows that ATP puts in 50 hours Multi-Engine FTD (Simulator). AriBen has all real flight time. But ATP has some goodies like the Regional Jet Training. Worth 10.000 USD? At least questionable.
2. The Chief-Pilot: As what I have seen and heard...a very knowledgeable person. If he claims to be a fighter pilot and has never sit in a fighter...he should stop to do so. But I don't know if he does it or not. He is there in the position of a chief flight instructor. Does his history really matter? I want to judge him on the job he is doing now. That seems to be good. Who is perfect? He isn't a good manager or has a bad time keeping...a chief flight instructor has a lot of things to do...and there are always people coming up that need things very urgent etc. And as everybody in aviation knows: Things can delay itself through to weather etc.
3. @Florida Flyer: I don't know where you hate comes from. But I realize that it is only a few people that are bashing the school all the time. They are sticking around for years. Wouldn't it be better to state the year of your experience? So everybody could see how recent your knowledge is.
4. @DA-42: Is the 265 an hour including instructing? Don't forget that you need instructing...at every school.
190 x 265 = 50350 and not 52000
If you take into account that you want to fly 100 hours with a safety pilot. Make sure that the insurance allows you to fly with two low time pilots in a multi engine plane.
The more important question for me is nowadays: Do you really need 200 hours multi time?
5. @DA-42 II: Is the DA-42 good or bad for flight trainign. Nobody really knows. Some flightschools say it is really better...other refused to buy them, because they say its not really multi engine training. They all have their own interests. I bet there will be a lot people who will fly CRJ etc.. for life and will never see an old fashioned plane after their flight school education.
****
In my own eyes the best way is still probably to do all your ratings on single engine with a multi addon. You probably end up with 30.000 USD if you do it cheap. Meaning you have saved 15.000 USD over the AriBen price. You can then buy a 100 hour time block for 10.000 USD or whatever. In the end you will have 350 hours (OK only 100 Multi) compared to somebody that has 250 hours directly from the school. And: You still have saved 5000 USD (for housing?). Or buy some real flying hours at eaglejet for the 15.000 USD (even if i personally don't like PFF programs).
But: Whatever flightschool you choose. In the end it is up to the student. The stundent has to do its homework etc.. The best school is nothing when the studen isn't willin/able to learn.
And probably most important: You have to have fun in what you're doing.
Have fun
Clever
I guess I was suggesting...that prices will go up the a few months ago. And everybody who runs a business can adjust prices as necessary. If somebody don't like it...just go somewhere else. But in the end: Every flightschool is run as a business. The owner wants to make money with it.
I would like to make some comments to previous posts. I have never attended Ari-Ben - though I visited a couple of times:
1. The old AllATP <-> Ariben Debate: ATP ...everybody knows that ATP puts in 50 hours Multi-Engine FTD (Simulator). AriBen has all real flight time. But ATP has some goodies like the Regional Jet Training. Worth 10.000 USD? At least questionable.
2. The Chief-Pilot: As what I have seen and heard...a very knowledgeable person. If he claims to be a fighter pilot and has never sit in a fighter...he should stop to do so. But I don't know if he does it or not. He is there in the position of a chief flight instructor. Does his history really matter? I want to judge him on the job he is doing now. That seems to be good. Who is perfect? He isn't a good manager or has a bad time keeping...a chief flight instructor has a lot of things to do...and there are always people coming up that need things very urgent etc. And as everybody in aviation knows: Things can delay itself through to weather etc.
3. @Florida Flyer: I don't know where you hate comes from. But I realize that it is only a few people that are bashing the school all the time. They are sticking around for years. Wouldn't it be better to state the year of your experience? So everybody could see how recent your knowledge is.
4. @DA-42: Is the 265 an hour including instructing? Don't forget that you need instructing...at every school.
190 x 265 = 50350 and not 52000
If you take into account that you want to fly 100 hours with a safety pilot. Make sure that the insurance allows you to fly with two low time pilots in a multi engine plane.
The more important question for me is nowadays: Do you really need 200 hours multi time?
5. @DA-42 II: Is the DA-42 good or bad for flight trainign. Nobody really knows. Some flightschools say it is really better...other refused to buy them, because they say its not really multi engine training. They all have their own interests. I bet there will be a lot people who will fly CRJ etc.. for life and will never see an old fashioned plane after their flight school education.
****
In my own eyes the best way is still probably to do all your ratings on single engine with a multi addon. You probably end up with 30.000 USD if you do it cheap. Meaning you have saved 15.000 USD over the AriBen price. You can then buy a 100 hour time block for 10.000 USD or whatever. In the end you will have 350 hours (OK only 100 Multi) compared to somebody that has 250 hours directly from the school. And: You still have saved 5000 USD (for housing?). Or buy some real flying hours at eaglejet for the 15.000 USD (even if i personally don't like PFF programs).
But: Whatever flightschool you choose. In the end it is up to the student. The stundent has to do its homework etc.. The best school is nothing when the studen isn't willin/able to learn.
And probably most important: You have to have fun in what you're doing.
Have fun
Clever
I think he missed the
Good point though!!!
. . .and you know what's really scary? My belief is that if Mike left, despite all the number crunching being performed, many of the naysayers would begin highly recommending the school to potential aviators.
So, despite #1 and #2, number 3 would kings "X"/veto everything else.
Gonzo and Cleverk1 brought up very concrete viewpoints. Kudos to their insight. Perspectives such as theirs make for knowledgeable/informed decisions.
Ernie, I fly the Seminole now... you're aware it has the same engine as the duchess yeah? The fuel burn is essentially the same, the Seminole being *slightly* higher because its a heavier plane. It's definitely not 50% higher.
SeattlePilot
Well-Known Member
I looked at DA42, it's not a good airplane from operational perspective unless you put many more hours than average to it. you want to reasons:
- Composite : costs more and longer to repair. It's got its own drawbacks.
- Engines : You must love them as they burn less but at 1000 TBO .. oh wait there is no TBO. You will have to go and get a new engine..
- Joke to fly : I still don't like FAA approving this airplane for initial me training. Try to fly a 'flying potato' Apache or turbo Seneca .. then i will call you a real ME pilot.
- Parts : Parts are freely available ? hahahaha .. Obviously you have no idea about the problems operators are experiencing. Parts are from Europe. did you check the Euro/Dollar rate lately ?
Since you are such an experienced operator... oh wait you are just a renter .. never mind
SeattlePilot
Well-Known Member
Skymates is supporting their domestic rates with international customers. Also, noone can beat the lower cost of operation in TX to other states. What I pay for an office rental is the price Skymates pay for their facilities.
Aviator is not a shiny airplane school. They have their niche. they don't want to be ATP.
Also, ATP closed 3-4 locations in last two years.