Jayrock
Well-Known Member
Do I get to learn in that fine machine in your avatar?
As long as you got your own flight suit and helmet.
Private Pilots License
- Thread starter titansox
- Start date
As long as you got your own flight suit and helmet.
The Gardener
Terrafirma Phobic
What is the point of calculating these bogus minimum figures then? Seems akin to the EPA's MPG calculations. It really isn't worth anything and usually just leaves a student coming up short on money and dissatisfied.
My students typically come out of the show with 55tt. I also recomend people budget one hour of ground for each hour of flight. This usually wont disappoint.
:yeahthat:
That is why I tell people, 1 or 2 flights a week your looking at 60 hours average and 3 or more 50 hours. If you can't fly at least once a week I recommend waiting till you can.
Comparing it to EPA is being generous, at least the EPA is usually ballpark.
Here:
http://www.aviationcareerguide.com/private_pilot_license.asp says, "most students have an average of 60-80 hours much depending on how often they fly"
http://www.soyouwanna.com/site/syws/pilot/pilotfull.html says, "But since the national average for students earning a private license is around 60 to 75 hours"
http://www.pilotoutlook.com/pilot_training/private_pilot_license says, "Average time to get private pilot license in US: 55"
http://www.sjflight.com/Cost.htm says, "whereas the average is 60-70 hours"
http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Cost-of-Learning-to-Fly-and-the-Private-Pilot-License&id=830316 says, "the national average for private pilots is 65 hours. Most private pilot syllabuses are between 45 and 55 hours"
If you want I have about 50 more from schools all over the united states. They range from 55-81. It was that research that I built my curriculum on.
The Gardener
Terrafirma Phobic
Wisely spend your money, just don't assume cheap is good. Just like the cheapest car, house or penny stocks.
Lastly, nothing in aviation is guaranteed and
NEVER, EVER EVER PAY FOR ANYTHING UP FRONT.
EVER!
I respectfully disagree. There is a method to follow to do this, but rarely is it taken. I will have a full post on this sometime in the next month, I have to meet with a lawyer first to draw up the generic contract. I agree to not pay up front without a contract, that is just silly.
The Gardener
Terrafirma Phobic
:yeahthat:
That is why I tell people, 1 or 2 flights a week your looking at 60 hours average and 3 or more 50 hours. If you can't fly at least once a week I recommend waiting till you can.
Comparing it to EPA is being generous, at least the EPA is usually ballpark.
Here:
http://www.aviationcareerguide.com/private_pilot_license.asp says, "most students have an average of 60-80 hours much depending on how often they fly"
http://www.soyouwanna.com/site/syws/pilot/pilotfull.html says, "But since the national average for students earning a private license is around 60 to 75 hours"
http://www.pilotoutlook.com/pilot_training/private_pilot_license says, "Average time to get private pilot license in US: 55"
http://www.sjflight.com/Cost.htm says, "whereas the average is 60-70 hours"
http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Cost-of-Learning-to-Fly-and-the-Private-Pilot-License&id=830316 says, "the national average for private pilots is 65 hours. Most private pilot syllabuses are between 45 and 55 hours"
If you want I have about 50 more from schools all over the united states. They range from 55-81. It was that research that I built my curriculum on.
So your average is 60 or 50 depending on frequency of flights? Or is that just what you tell people? You can laywer up all you want with a contract but the student still stands a great chance of getting screwed. The owner of our competing flight school is an attorney. It hasn't stopped him from screwing anybody.
It is what I tell people who question me about getting flight training anywhere. Not specifically with me. This was just from site research and calling flight schools and requesting their averages.
I am not saying you can't be screwed over. But with a properly worded contract, signed by both parties, you can at least protect yourself. I would bet your lawyer buddy isn't signing contracts, if he is they probably are worded in his favor.
The Gardener
Terrafirma Phobic
First off, this jerk certainly isn't my buddy. Farthest thing from it.
What is the benefits of requiring cash up front for the student? If the student drops out the school gets to pocket the cash, which is great for the school? I've yet to ever see the up side this provides the student. As a business proposition for a flight school it is a great way to make a lot of money fast.
What is wrong with a pay as you go program? If the flight school/instructor is on stable ground financially it should be easy enough to do and mutually beneficial.
LET ME SAY IT ONE MORE TIME.
NEVER EVER EVER PAY UP FRONT. EVER
The buddy thing was sarcastic, sorry wasn't meant to offend.
Also, I said a contract. By that I don't mean one in favor of the school. I mean a contract that favors both. One of those favors would be a refund policy with agreed upon stipulations.
The benefit to the student is the up front savings. Say they find out that 60 hours will cost them 10,000. Now they go in and negotiate for that 60 hours to get 10 percent discount, or 9,000. They just saved 1,000 bucks.
Their contract should cover, to name a few things:
The school going out of business.
Unused hours.
Overage costs.
Backing out of the program for any reason.
Paying up front is fine and can result in savings. You just need to take proper precautions to protect your investment. That all falls back on being a "smart investor" and planning/researching thoroughly before you invest.
The Gardener
Terrafirma Phobic
So you plan to put the students money in escrow until their training contract has been completed?
I charge on a pay as you go program and see no reason at all I'd ever want to give up a 10% discount for any reason. I'd also prefer not to get locked down with a student. If things aren't working out I'd like to be able to facilitate an easy separation. It is also hard to believe that a new student benefits from locking into an agreement with one particular operation when it would just be easier to pay as you go and have the freedom to do what they want with their money without having to get involved with litigation.
Possibly after instructing for a bit you'll understand where I'm coming from.
Rudabega
Well-Known Member
Why attack my post when at the top and the bottom I said that it would likely cost more? That said I have had several students pass under 45 hours and one at 41 hours. If I didn't have to hold my students hands on ground school they would have met the mins. While they are hard to attain they are not bogus figures. Not many people put forward the amount of work it takes to achieve those numbers so I even said in my post that it isn't common. It can and has been done though.
It isn't that they are "bogus" figures. It is that they are not the average. They are certainly attainable, so is taking AP classes in high school. But the average high school student doesn't take AP classes and the average pilot student does not get their PPL in 40 hours.
We aren't talking instruction. We are talking investments. I could have 10 million hours and still have no idea how to make a proper investment. Likewise some people could have 0 flight time and really understand investing in a product, any product.
Clean breaks are possible with the right contract. They also provide benefit to the school. For instance, if the contract states that, if a student initiates a breech in that contract they are refunded their investment less 10 percent. Now, on a 9,000 dollar investment the school is assured that they have 900 from that student, no matter what. If the school initiates the breech, all money is returned that has not been used.
As far as escrow, I don't think I follow why you would use this term or what it has to do with this discussion. I would assume some money would be kept for paying maintenance/fuel and as much as possible would be put into a high yield savings account or wisely invested elsewhere.
Do we have any business owners on here? I would like to hear some of your thoughts on getting lump sums to invest with versus a pay as you go plan. A lump sum of course requiring a discount you offset through investing.
If you ever need comparison information to help you better understand what you watched go here: http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/short.html
Also, the book "Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators" if you want more advanced, but still understandable, information.
Nihon_Ni
Well-Known Member
How many weather cancellations did you figure into your time-line? How many sick days? How about days when you can't schedule an airplane because someone else has it or your CFI is on summer vacation? Or days when you just want to hang out with your friends instead of going to the airport or studying by yourself.
I think planning to get your PPL from mid May to mid July can be done, but it's pretty aggressive. It all depends on how committed you are and what else you plan to do while getting your license.
My advice is to not set a goal for yourself that takes all the fun out of life. Flying is great, but it's an anti-social activity. Learn to fly, but not at the cost of making you loath flying.
Is there something special about mid-July?
titansox
Well-Known Member
Mid July is when we have our 2 week family vacation in the OBX. So it wouldn't be the worse thing in the world if I had a 2 week vacation in between my training I suppose.
The whole reason I'm getting my PPL is because I need it for ATC. However tonight I'm starting to have second thoughts about ATC for the first time.
The Gardener
Terrafirma Phobic
You've proven my point. If you haven't ever had a student complete their training in 40 total, 20 dual then why would you give a prospective student the quote? I've found it much much better to give people true, realistic numbers so that they can budget correctly. The last thing I want is for a student to run out of funds 80% through their training.
If the flight school is holding the money and then goes out of business the student wont be able to get their money back. Students are quite low typically on the list in bankruptcy court. There has been hundreds of students who have been through this. I sure a quick search here you'll find a bit.
Remember Silver State Helicopters? Regional Airline Academy?
Rudabega
Well-Known Member
Your point has been proven, 40 and 41 are two very different numbers. I am sure my student will forever hold it against me that he to spend $70 over the min when I even told him before that it would likely cost more, much like how how I mentioned that at the top and bottom of my post. What a terrible person I am for posting the mins to give my students something to reach for and then clearly posting that it will almost certainly cost another grand on top of that. :dunno:
I am done argueing this.
I will agree with not putting much money down, $1000 max to get the prepay rate. Silver State Helicopters screwed quite a few people.