Private Pilot doing illegal charters

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Pilot2087

Well-Known Member
I am instructor at a small FBO on the east coast. I just instruct part time, and work for another company for the majority of my income, that being said, Im the only instructor here at this FBO.

One of my students just got his private pilots license and wants to get his commercial license and has been timebuilding.

He works part time for a medical company, and is taking coworkers to different states dropping them off and returning back. I told him taking passengers was illegal unless they are paying pro ratio share (which he says is happening), and they have a common purpose (which I told him a drop-off is proof there is no common purpose), even then in my opionion it was borderline illegal because now he is getting flight time in compensation. He also told me he was getting tips. I told him ANY compensation was illegal so he backed away from that.

Anyways here are my options;

1. Do nothing, I warned him, Im not the aviation police. I dont have time to moniter every renter that rents our airplane to see that they are following the FARs. Would the FAA hold me responsible if I knew someone was doing something illegal and I didnt report it?

2. Tell him what he is doing is illegal and dont allow him to rent from us anymore.

3. Report him to the FAA. I really dont want to hurt him or his career, but maybe this might help him?
 
I don't see that you have an exposure here. What he does with the airplane is on him. That said, I'm not an attorney, maybe you should talk to one.

Whatever the case, as you point out, you're not the aviation police, so I'd hope calling the FSDO is out.
 
Pilot2087 said:
The FAA considers flight time as compensation. Also although they are paying pro ratio share of the flight, there is no common purpose.
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Pretty common for co-workers and friends to ask to go flying with pilots, that may well be the purpose of the trip. There isn't necessarily a problem if when you are talking about where to go, they need to hop off elsewhere. Besides, furtherance/incidental to business is also okay. I think there are bigger fish to fry out there than flying friends/family/coworkers infrequently.

The flight time = compensation argument is irrelevant when you are paying a pro rata share with friends/coworkers. Otherwise it would never be legal to fly with anyone else.

But short answer - no need to be the sky police. His problem, not yours.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
But short answer - no need to be the sky police. His problem, not yours.
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Very true. *Except*, sometimes these types of things can haunt you. "What did you know, and when did you know it" sort of questions. But in general, I worry about what I'm doing, and let others worry about their own operation.
Since he is renting from you, you do have a vested interest in making sure everything is on the up and up. I might consider typing up a summary of the regs, involved and have him sign it. If something bad happened, you could hold it up and say " I worried about that, but am not a detective. I wanted to be sure he knew the rules."
 
Mind your own business. Sounds like it's a grey area open to interpretation if it's legal or not. He's not hurting anyone and likely isn't even breaking the law. He will have his commercial ticket soon enough and then there will be no question. Don't be a hall monitor for hair-splitting stuff.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2
 
So he's using airplanes from your FBO to do this? I would inform the chief pilot or who ever's in charge of the operations at the FBO of what appears to be going on and let them make the decision on what to do.

If the FBO owns the airplane he's using, they do have a say in the matter. The FAA doesn't need to be called, if the FBO doesn't like how their airplanes are being used they can ask him to rent elsewhere...
 
Itchy said:
Very true. *Except*, sometimes these types of things can haunt you. "What did you know, and when did you know it" sort of questions. But in general, I worry about what I'm doing, and let others worry about their own operation.
Since he is renting from you, you do have a vested interest in making sure everything is on the up and up.
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Well, as the OP is has CFI, and he is working on a comm ASEL, a lesson is probably the right place for going over common carriage/pro rata/all that jazz.

Just sayin. (and try to include examples of when it is okay to fly friends/coworkers)
 
I'd say it's good you reminded him of the rules as a basic element of accountability within the aviation community.

Anything I'd bother doing beyond that would depend...

If he's renting from you and actually getting paid to fly he's voiding your insurance policy and I'd be taking that personally. If he didn't stop he'd no longer be allowed to rent from me.

If he's doing it in his own plane I'm probably not going to be paying close attention, but if it was very obvious he was getting paid regularly by many people and it was more than friends splitting costs, then I might escalate it. Nobody likes a self-designated airport cop regarding small stuff, but if someone is blatantly breaking laws repeatedly they are going to hear about it, especially when it's directly related to public safety and public perception of aviation.
 
No, nothing will come back on *you* from the FAA, even if what hi is doing is illegal, though it doesn't sound clear-cut illegal.
 
Just two other varibles that should not change anyones answer.

1. He does not know all of his passengers. In fact, a women came in with two kids asking about a charter to x. I introduced her to her pilot (my student) and off they went (All of his flying though is through the same company though that he works for)

2. A local charter pilot who used to fly for this company is upset because a private pilot from my flight school just undercut him.

Sounds like the general consensus is to just leave it be. It is a gray area it looks like, I warned him. I will stay out of it.
 
Pilot2087 said:
a women came in with two kids asking about a charter to x. I introduced her to her pilot (my student) and off they went (All of his flying though is through the same company though that he works for)
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Uhhhhm, you dont like the fact that he's flying illegal charters, but you're sending him illegal charter customers?
 
rframe said:
Uhhhhm, you dont like the fact that he's flying illegal charters, but you're sending him illegal charter customers?
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"charter" to the general public doesn't mean the same thing as it does to pilots.

Most of my non-aviation friends don't understand why I can fly with them on out of town trips andet them chip in for it, but I won't take random people anywhere, but will give them lessons or intro flights, and only do sightseeing in certain aircraft, etc, etc.
 
(NB. The OP is somewhat ambiguous, and I may be working on invalid assumptions here, but)

...Me, I'd think a conversation might be in order, reinforced by a comment that you might be ... ah ... disinclined to rent to him in the future if he continues to engage in this behavior.

I don't really understand how anyone thinks this is legal or borderline legal. I'm not saying run to the FAA... ffs, unless it's something safety-critical, they need to earn their keep themselves... but it doesn't matter if he's a private pilot, commercial pilot or CFI: What he's doing is not legal, to my knowledge, and no FAA decision I've ever seen would support it.

There's another thing to keep in mind -- by referring a 'customer' to him, it's very possible that you've just put yourself right in the line of fire as a ghetto operator should TSHTF.

So ... my personal advice? Have a firm talk with him. Explain to him the difference between being a commercial pilot and a commercial operator. Explain to him the concept of holding out. He's your student? He wants to get his commercial? Screw the maneuvers, drill this through his head Right The Frak Now: It doesn't matter if he's an ATPL with 10,000 hours. What he's doing is almost certainly not legal without being in the aegis of an operating certificate somewhere. (Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here... my reading of LOIs and 14 CFR could be incomplete and if it is I'd like to know, but do please cite!)

IMO, you may see a grey area here, but from what I know the FAA does not.

Just me own $1.68 worth of time and energy! ^.^

-Fox
 
I did NOT refer a customer to him! I said I introduced them to him.

I was sitting behind desk watching the phone
customers walk in the door with bags
I ask them what I can do for them
They reply that they here for a charter flight
I ask them what company they are chartering with
they dont know, but they did tell me the name of pilot (me shocked)
Private pilot walks in
I introduce customers to pilot they just asked for
 
Acrofox said:
(NB. The OP is somewhat ambiguous, and I may be working on invalid assumptions here, but)

...Me, I'd think a conversation might be in order, reinforced by a comment that you might be ... ah ... disinclined to rent to him in the future if he continues to engage in this behavior.

I don't really understand how anyone thinks this is legal or borderline legal. I'm not saying run to the FAA... ffs, unless it's something safety-critical, they need to earn their keep themselves... but it doesn't matter if he's a private pilot, commercial pilot or CFI: What he's doing is not legal, to my knowledge, and no FAA decision I've ever seen would support it.

There's another thing to keep in mind -- by referring a 'customer' to him, it's very possible that you've just put yourself right in the line of fire as a ghetto operator should TSHTF.

So ... my personal advice? Have a firm talk with him. Explain to him the difference between being a commercial pilot and a commercial operator. Explain to him the concept of holding out. He's your student? He wants to get his commercial? Screw the maneuvers, drill this through his head Right The Frak Now: It doesn't matter if he's an ATPL with 10,000 hours. What he's doing is almost certainly not legal without being in the aegis of an operating certificate somewhere. (Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here... my reading of LOIs and 14 CFR could be incomplete and if it is I'd like to know, but do please cite!)

IMO, you may see a grey area here, but from what I know the FAA does not.

Just me own $1.68 worth of time and energy! ^.^

-Fox
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All sounds correct to me. Sounds like a case of 134.5 to me.
 
jknight8907 said:
He will have his commercial ticket soon enough and then there will be no question. Don't be a hall monitor for hair-splitting stuff.
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the commercial ticket does absolutely nothing to allow him to do this.

What it sounds like he is doing is charter. which he needs a 135 cert for.

Now, should you care? Not really. let him be.
 
upon finishing the thread, your private pilot is most certainly doing something highly illegal.

like it was mentioned, it doesn't matter if he were a commercial pilot, an ATP or anything else. he needs a 135 certification todo what he is doing. simple and clear.
 
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