Private Jet PIC/SIC, single pilot question

Time2Fli

New Member
I don’t know how to word this question, so here goes…:confused:

I have flown a CE-525 as a student awhile back and was told it was single pilot certified. As I look into Type Ratings I am coming across SIC types for the CE-525. Are some single pilot certified and others not or is the SIC required for insurance, part 135 or something else.

Thanks for your time and explanation
 

cj4pilot

Well-Known Member
All CE-525/A/B's (CJ,CJ1,CJ2,CJ3's) are certified for single pilot operations (FAA). As far as I know any turbojet/turbofan(non-turboprop) airplane requires two pilots for 135 (FAA). However, insurance is another story as I have seen most lower time (in-type) pilots operate their 525's with a co-pilot. (Harrison Ford for instance). From what I have heard the single-pilot insurance rates are so much higher that it sometimes becomes cheaper just to have a second pilot. So if it's a 91 plane then the FAA doesn't care who's in the right seat, just the insurance company.

The other citations that a certified for single pilot operations (from the factory) without a waiver AFAIK are 501(I SP), 510 (mustang), 551( II SP same thing as a 550(II) but with reduced T.O. weights), and 550B (Bravo)<not completly sure on this one. If I am not mistaken with the older models, the autopilot had to be operational and you had to have a headset.

I've seen almost everything else besides a 750 (X), 680 (Soverign), 560XL (Excel), and 650 (III/VI/VII) operated single pilot 91. Citations such as the 550 (II), S550 (SII), and 560 (V, Ultra, Encore) can be operated single pilot 91 with some sort of waiver (FAA) and extra recurrent training.

All the above is not fact, just what I understand from working on them (A&P) and trying to break into flying them. (500 CMEL working on my CFI)
 

minitour

New Member
For the Citations:

The 500 & 550 (whatever you want to call them - Bravo, II, S2, etc.) are two pilot part 25 planes. However, when you meet certain requirements (turbine time maybe, maybe time in type. I never looked into it), you can get a single pilot waiver so long as you have certain equipment (Autopilot & Boom Mic for sure, a Yoke Clip IIRC).

The 560 (V, etc.) is a two pilot airplane.

The 501 and 551 are single pilot planes*.

The CE-500 type covers all of those types at once. If you do your type rating in a CE-500, CE-550 or CE-560 you can fly the 501 and 551 single pilot without additional training. If you do your ride in a 501 or 551, you need an SIC unless you demonstrated single pilot proficiency (in the 501 and 551 - you still need an SIC in the 500, 550 and 560).

I did my ride in a CE500 and don't have a "SIC Required" limitation on my certificate. Then again, someone would have to pay me a #####-ton of money to fly a 501 or 551 single pilot without extensive training. I just wouldn't be comfortable with it.

-mini

*-sorta
 

milleR

Well-Known Member
"When Cessna initiated development of the Model 525 Citation Jet in the late 1980s, though, the FAA determined that it was sufficiently different from other Citation 500 models to warrant a separate type-rating. The CJ would be certified as a Part 23 aircraft, making it eligible for single-pilot operations. Cessna, though, pursued both CE-525 two-pilot and CE-525S single-pilot type-rating approvals, thereby giving operators a choice of flying alone or with an SIC. The CJ3 also will be certified as a Part 23 aircraft, but in the higher-weight commuter category. Want to fly with an SIC if you have a CE-525S type-rating? Just take a Part 61.58 check ride with an SIC and you’re qualified!"

From

http://www.mycontractpilots.com/history.htm
 

rasec

Well-Known Member
now heres a question... what if your flying part 91 as a co pilot with a guy that doesnt have theSIC limitation. how would you log that?


if you do 3 touch n goes you can apply for your SIC type for part 91. How does that look for companies like net jets or even the airlines if you log SIC time in a single pilot airplane?
 

NJA_Capt

Well-Known Member
...if you do 3 touch n goes you can apply for your SIC type for part 91. How does that look for companies like net jets or even the airlines if you log SIC time in a single pilot airplane?
Not too good. If the pilot you are flying with does NOT require an SIC....you are a passenger.

Unless you train and check Part 135, SIC time in a single pilot airplane is worthless. It is great experience none-the-less, but it won't enhance your resume.
 

viper548

Well-Known Member
now heres a question... what if your flying part 91 as a co pilot with a guy that doesnt have theSIC limitation. how would you log that?


if you do 3 touch n goes you can apply for your SIC type for part 91. How does that look for companies like net jets or even the airlines if you log SIC time in a single pilot airplane?
You don't log the time. You're not required to be there, so you're a passenger
 

docflyer

New Member
I thought I heard somewhere that single pilot operations in approved aircraft (i.e. CE-560) was something added to your type rating/certificate?

As far as logging the time. Like others have said unless your 135/91K you're just along for the ride, But if the PIC is an instructor, maybe he could give you a little instruction in the aircraft on position legs and give you some logbook entries for it.
 

minitour

New Member
I thought I heard somewhere that single pilot operations in approved aircraft (i.e. CE-560) was something added to your type rating/certificate?
Sometimes.

In the C525(A,B), your type is either CE-525 (SIC required) or CE-525S (Single Pilot).

In the C500 series, if you do your ride in a 501 with the help of an "SIC" then your certificate is listed with a limitation of "SIC Required". There is no "500S" type. It's all "CE-500". As for the waiver for the 2 pilot plane to operate it single pilot, beats me. Someone here that has the SPW training would have to chime in on that.

-mini
 

rasec

Well-Known Member
Ok now what if you fly a Cessna Mustang for example that doesnt require a Type Rating. Obviously insurance wants you to take Cessna's course, but if you hop in with someone and you have category and class you can log it as PIC correct? How do the airlines and coporporate companies (net jets, xo jet ect..) look at that?
 

CK

Well-Known Member
Ok now what if you fly a Cessna Mustang for example that doesnt require a Type Rating. Obviously insurance wants you to take Cessna's course, but if you hop in with someone and you have category and class you can log it as PIC correct? How do the airlines and coporporate companies (net jets, xo jet ect..) look at that?
All jets require type ratings.

Alex.
 

RynoB

That One Guy
Ok now what if you fly a Cessna Mustang for example that doesnt require a Type Rating. Obviously insurance wants you to take Cessna's course, but if you hop in with someone and you have category and class you can log it as PIC correct? How do the airlines and coporporate companies (net jets, xo jet ect..) look at that?
The Mustang requires a type rating. It is a CE-510 type, and also can be obtained as single-pilot (S) or SIC required.
 

stuckingfk

Well-Known Member
i didnt think it did since its belwo 12,500. are we sure on this? obviously no insurance will cover you if you dont take a formal course, just like the king air 200. i may be wrong, but i just wanted to throw that question out there
You are wrong. I think there's at least one plane (that I know of) which has a gross weight over 12,500 lbs and does not require a type. Anyone know what that is?

I don't have a FAR/AIM in front of me, so I don't know the specific reference, but all turbojet powered airplanes require a type.
 

Nihon_Ni

Well-Known Member
You are wrong. I think there's at least one plane (that I know of) which has a gross weight over 12,500 lbs and does not require a type. Anyone know what that is?

I don't have a FAR/AIM in front of me, so I don't know the specific reference, but all turbojet powered airplanes require a type.
Spruce Goose?

Many military planes don't have type ratings, because unless there's a civil version, one isn't required. (You don't need an FAA license to fly a military airplane.) Fighters, bombers, some transports, some helos don't have type ratings even though they might be turbojets or over 12,500.
 
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