Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight schools

[nosehair]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

I think you mean don't 'choke' the yoke.

A light touch (finger-tip flying) is what you are promoting, and a light touch develops the feel to keep it trimmed and stable, even when you are doing the other stuff.

I think you mean you have to make them fly 'hands off' to break the death grip hold, or choke, but with the eventual goal of flying with a light finger tip touch as the scan is diverted.

 

[SteveC]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

...With a proper scan and cockpit discipline I think it is OK to have one hand lightly on the yoke at all times while flying in IMC...

I agree. I also like to have my yoke hand or arm "grounded" on an arm rest or my leg or something else that is relatively fixed in location to help keep a steady reference while my eyes are off the instruments. I even use this technique when the autopilot is turned on so I can feel what is going on.

I'm not a big fan of spending much time with my hand off the yoke unless it is smooth air in level flight with the autopilot on. In almost every other situation I like a light touch on the yoke to feel what the airplane is doing.

 

[Douglas]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

Chop the forearm...sweep the legs.

But seriously, over controlling is a big problem.

 

[PFGiardino]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

Try some fromunda' sweat applied liberally to the abused portions of the yoke. I have this friend who says it works like a charm.

 

[bLizZuE]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

I'm sorry, but are you guys suggesting that Riddle is the "Harvard of the skies"?!?!?

Now I went to the real Harvard (back me up here Blizzue) and we were taught correctly. Relax, fly with 2 fingers, and let go of the yoke briefly as necessary. Granted that was 16 years ago, but I still fly that way. The Law of Primacy has been good to me.




That's right, I went there... BRING IT ON!!!!:bandit:

+1

 

[Blackhawk]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

Not once have I told you that your technique is garbage or that you are a poor instructor, so enough of that. Thanks!

I am AGREEING with you in that you absolutely DO NOT need a death grip on the yoke at ANY TIME. However our difference in opinion lays in the fact that I do not teach my students to ever just "let go" of the airplane even if it's trimmed up properly. With a proper scan and cockpit discipline I think it is OK to have one hand lightly on the yoke at all times while flying in IMC...what crime is a person who does this guilty of?

Why not let go of the yoke?? I've seen too many pilots who just can't let go when they are doing other things... such as tuning radios, writing, etc. If you are not looking at the instruments- and by definition you are not when you do these tasks- you should not hold the yoke. The airplane will not fall out of the sky if you let go. If you need something to hold onto take a blanket with you.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

Meh, sounds like technique to me. If it works for somebody then let it go. If its obviously getting in the way of getting stuff done...well.

The other thing is people (on both sides of the big flight school argument) like to view each and every student that came out of there as the same. That simply isn't true. While which flight school you went to can play a role in what kind of pilot you become, the bigger factor is what kind of flight instructor you had. That makes the biggest difference.

 

[mikecweb]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

Why not let go of the yoke?? I've seen too many pilots who just can't let go when they are doing other things... such as tuning radios, writing, etc. If you are not looking at the instruments- and by definition you are not when you do these tasks- you should not hold the yoke. The airplane will not fall out of the sky if you let go. If you need something to hold onto take a blanket with you.
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What about in moderate or greater turbulence while on a departure, arrival, and/or an approach? Can I hold on to the yolk while I tune a radio? Unless it negatively affects something I don't see what the big deal is... Sounds like you just have a grudge against a school and a personal technique that you believe is the one and only true way when professionals everywhere don't believe in.

The students are probably gripping the yolk so hard because mentally they are so annoyed by your incessant nagging about the school they went to that they are wishing the yolk was your neck

 

[SIUav8er]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

I've had a few students come to me from the "Harvard" of flight training

...and this right here I believe is your explanation. Obviously they quit Riddle for SOME reason and came to you. Dont complain about them, theyre students! train them how you want them to fly!

I wish the dumbest, most annoying thing my students did was grip the yoke! lol

 

[jynxyjoe]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

What about in moderate or greater turbulence while on a departure, arrival, and/or an approach? Can I hold on to the yolk while I tune a radio? Unless it negatively affects something I don't see what the big deal is... Sounds like you just have a grudge against a school and a personal technique that you believe is the one and only true way when professionals everywhere don't believe in.

The students are probably gripping the yolk so hard because mentally they are so annoyed by your incessant nagging about the school they went to that they are wishing the yolk was your neck

Strange, I had a dream about that last night! I think you're on to something Mike.

 

[Minuteman]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

Google.

This thread itself is the fourth result. The first two were from harvard.edu and the third was a blog.

 

[FDX8891]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

"That right there is part of your problem. An airplane is not a car. When you are flying in instruments you are hardly driving down a straight road. You are flying in three demensional space in a stable platform."

Right, we fly in a three dimensional space, but a stable platform? I don't think so...turbulence,windshear, updrafts, downdrafts....If i'm flying I want my hand on the yoke, I'm sorry. - My personal preference.

"If you are briefing the approach you are not scanning"

Really? I'm always scanning. The only thing that's changed when I'm briefing an IAP is that the chart is now a part of my scan! - Difference in technique.

"Some say flying is the ability to multitask, but really it is the ability to prioritize tasks and do the most important task first"

Aviate, navigate, communicate. - Difference in opinion I guess!

"When you are briefing an approach or some other task that requires your attention in the cockpit and you are not longer scanning you need to let go of the controls."

I guess when I'm flying in IMC with my instrument students I'll make sure we're prioritizing properly..."Hey man, let go of the yoke - I'll modify the flight plan in the GPS while you call up FSS and get updated weather...Don't touch the yoke! You'll get us killed! - I guess we differ here too, but that's okay!

"Holding the yoke is a recipe for disaster when you are doing a missed approach at night in a driving thunderstorm talking to ATC for vectors, cross tuning to talk to FSS about the safest way home, tuning the VOR for the missed, while looking at your low level chart and computing the time to your divert to see if you have enough gas..."

When are we going to sneak in the part were we put our hands on the yoke and fly the airplane? - I'm just being facetious here, but do you see my point?

Sounds like you had a few students who had a bad habit of white-knuckling the yoke that happened to go to the same school and you went ahead and made this assumption that all students from this school were being taught this way. Have you thought about all the other possible causes why those students might be white-knuckling the yoke? Maybe their pucker factor is so high because they are fearful of screwing up in front of you. (You're their new instructor, right? Whenever someone is trying to impress a person they just met or aren't comfortable in front of, they are more prone to get a little tense, and that's not rocket science, you know that. Maybe you constantly reminding them of their imminent death by having too-strong a grip on the yoke is freezing them up. Or maybe you're student is smarter than you give them credit for and realizes when an instructor (even though they might be highly experienced and knowledgeable) is preaching technique like it's the gospel. If my student isn't doing anything that's unsafe then I'm not going to change their technique to appeal to my personal preferences. And that's just me.

 

[///AMG]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

For that last bullet, I'd argue that a proactive pilot would have already looked at the chart, calculated fuel, and checked divert weather during the low tasking period before initiating that first approach (at least if he thought there was a real chance of having to go missed). That way you aren't having to do all that crap low to the ground on the missed, and can concentrate on properly flying the airplane. Hands on or hands off, makes no difference to me as long as the plane goes where it needs to in a safe manner I think the most important point is that the aircraft should be trimmed well enough that you CAN take your hands off the yoke/stick if you need to for other cockpit admin tasks. There is certainly something to be said for attempting to fly the aircraft in IMC when you aren't actually looking at the instruments. Without that reference, you can definitely do more harm than good (ie unconscious hand movememnts leading to small bank angles that develop into big ones before you notice), so when I fly, I normally just lightly brace the stick so it doesn't move while I am head down pulling something out or what not. You SHOULD be comfortable enough to let go completely for a short period if you need to.

 

[moxiepilot]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

I'm a bit late, as usual; but my opinion is that anyone teaching at a 141 school should only be hired after teaching part 61 for a year. If you only have instructors who have come up through the ranks and never experienced any real world flying or real world training then they only know what they have seen - which might not have been all that much.

 

[dasleben]

I'm a bit late, as usual; but my opinion is that anyone teaching at a 141 school should only be hired after teaching part 61 for a year. If you only have instructors who have come up through the ranks and never experienced any real world flying or real world training then they only know what they have seen - which might not have been all that much.

Sorry, but Part 61 is no more "real world" than 141. I've done and taught both. It's all instructor-dependent in terms of what the student gets out of it.

 

[moxiepilot]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

Sorry, but Part 61 is no more "real world" than 141. I've done and taught both. It's all instructor-dependent in terms of what the student gets out of it.

I disagree. You have many more students who are training part 61 that are not interested in persuing a career in aviation. If all you have known and seen are "training for the airlines" with stage checks and self-examining powers, the students turned CFIs have no idea how the real world of aviation functions.

For example: part 141 - oh noez! our xxxx is not functioning we need to cancel our flight!

real world - oh noez! our xxx is not functioning. that sucks.

 

[Blackhawk]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

What about in moderate or greater turbulence while on a departure, arrival, and/or an approach? Can I hold on to the yolk while I tune a radio? Unless it negatively affects something I don't see what the big deal is... Sounds like you just have a grudge against a school and a personal technique that you believe is the one and only true way when professionals everywhere don't believe in.

The students are probably gripping the yolk so hard because mentally they are so annoyed by your incessant nagging about the school they went to that they are wishing the yolk was your neck

I have nothing against any school. I have something against poor technique and poor teaching. Well duh. If you need to hold the yoke, hold it. If the airplane is stable and you are not scanning, let go of the yoke. Holding the yoke while doing something other than scanning is silly and shows insecurity. Get a blanket if you need one.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

I'm a bit late, as usual; but my opinion is that anyone teaching at a 141 school should only be hired after teaching part 61 for a year. If you only have instructors who have come up through the ranks and never experienced any real world flying or real world training then they only know what they have seen - which might not have been all that much.

Phht. Well I must go with a no on that one.

I just wanted to see how many "o's" and "n's" I could throw in there, little bit of rhyming there too I think.

 

[moxiepilot]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

I may not have made my thoughts clear enough, and using the part 61 vs. 141 might have been a poor example. All I was really trying to say is that I find that pilot puppy mill instructors tend to have little experience outside of their puppy mill realm. The only exception is usually the upper management, who tend to do little instruction at that point.

I see the mistakes of instructors are handed down to their students, who become instructors at the same place and then teach the same mistakes to their students. My observation is that those instructors who have strayed outside the realm of that their TCO outlines, are more rounded and less up tight about things. The PTS is the PTS and you can do it within tolerances or not. Black and white. White I find the hang up to be is that PROCEDURE becomes more important than the end result.

While a flow, procedure or method can be more effective or direct - if the end result is the same, should the manner in which the task was accomplished be chastized for being "different"? It's similar to this discussion - if a student has a death grip or never releases the yoke, is that wrong? Nope. Are there more effective and efficient ways to fly? Yep.

As long as it is not affecting saftey, this really should be a non-issue.

 

[dasleben]

Re: Primacy and bad habits at the "Harvard" of flight school

I may not have made my thoughts clear enough, and using the part 61 vs. 141 might have been a poor example. All I was really trying to say is that I find that pilot puppy mill instructors tend to have little experience outside of their puppy mill realm. The only exception is usually the upper management, who tend to do little instruction at that point.

I see the mistakes of instructors are handed down to their students, who become instructors at the same place and then teach the same mistakes to their students. My observation is that those instructors who have strayed outside the realm of that their TCO outlines, are more rounded and less up tight about things. The PTS is the PTS and you can do it within tolerances or not. Black and white. White I find the hang up to be is that PROCEDURE becomes more important than the end result.

While a flow, procedure or method can be more effective or direct - if the end result is the same, should the manner in which the task was accomplished be chastized for being "different"? It's similar to this discussion - if a student has a death grip or never releases the yoke, is that wrong? Nope. Are there more effective and efficient ways to fly? Yep.

As long as it is not affecting saftey, this really should be a non-issue.

I absolutely agree with you about the "cycle" that occurs. That was a big issue that I saw when I worked in a 141/142 environment. But, that occurred just the same under Part 61. It's just what happens when a 300 hour pilot teaches a 200 hour pilot. The 300 hour instructor, regardless of which Part he was "brought up" in, still doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground.