Precautionary shut down

iFLY87

iFLY87

Well-Known Member
The other night I was teaching in the duchess (light twin). It was just a local flight, doing maneuvers and pattern work never exceeding 20 miles of our home airport. We were getting ready to head back to the airport and I asked the student for an emergency descent. Throttles to idle, props forward, gear down pitch for Vlo. Well as soon as we began the descent I noticed a flicker coming out of the right engine, which kept enlarging until I called engine fire. We aborted the maneuver and preceded to shutdown the engine. Fire went out immediately and we made a B-line for the airport and notified the tower we were single engine. They asked if we needed any assistance, told them negative and landed, taxied to the ramp and shut down.
I have two questions. 1. I was told by our Chief Flight Instructor, it is required to declare an emergency for any engine failure. If this is true where in the FAR’s does it say when its required or not required to declare an emergency. Also, I had a long conversation with the mechanic, who is very knowledgeable, that this was just “After Fire” due to pulling the throttles to idle too fast and the unburnt fuel was ignited coming out of the exhaust. After he explained it to me it made sense. Sound right? Now what should I expect from the FAA. The controller did take my name to report it. No emergency was declared and didn’t roll the trucks.
Thanks guys
 
ask you chief instructor what the reg is. i haven't heard of one.

i really doubt you'll ever hear from the faa. i had several emergencies, i've never heard a word from them.
 
Don't hold your breath waiting for the FAA, you won't hear from them.

It's entirely possible that you're Chief is referring to company policy but there is no regulation that "requires" you to declare an emergency.
 
There is no regulatory requirement to declare or not declare an emergency. Perhaps he was thinking of 49 CFR 830.5(a)(4), which requires notification to the NTSB of engine fires.
 
iFLY87 said:
... Well as soon as we began the descent I noticed a flicker coming out of the right engine, which kept enlarging until I called engine fire. We aborted the maneuver and preceded to shutdown the engine. Fire went out immediately and we made a B-line for the airport and notified the tower we were single engine. They asked if we needed any assistance, told them negative and landed, taxied to the ramp and shut down.
I have two questions. 1. I was told by our Chief Flight Instructor, it is required to declare an emergency for any engine failure. If this is true where in the FAR’s does it say when its required or not required to declare an emergency. ...
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It's not "required" to declare an emergency, but to be honest I can't think of any reason NOT to declare an emergency when I suspect an engine fire and am flying single engine, and I can think of a whole bunch of reasons why I SHOULD declare. "Hello, I have a possible engine fire but I don't need the emergency equipment. Thanks anyway, but I'll just take my chances." Wut???
 
Ditto what Steve said.

One other point. You will often hear people say they did not declare an emergency because they didn't want to fill out all the paperwork. Whenever you hear that, ask them what paperwork are they talking about.
 
The poor guys at the Fire Dept. only get called out a few times a year. If I get the chance I'll let them come out and greet me. I know they don't mind a trip to the airport. Unfortunately for them though, I've always left them without a plane crash to clean up.
 
Always declare when/if your sphincter contracts past .4
No harm in declaring, and it could save your butt/certificate. It puts your airplane in a protective cocoon should you do anything that may normally be frowned upon.
I remember about 20 years ago, a CFI called the tower inbound in some light twin. Thought he was on fire, and requested to do a flyby of the tower so they could see if he was.... HELLO? You hear the damnedest things over time...
 
iFLY87 said:
. I was told by our Chief Flight Instructor, it is required to declare an emergency for any engine failure.
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Dude is making things up. Common in the flight training enviroment. When in doubt, ask for the reg to you can "educate" yourself.
 
I went to a Wings event when I was still a student pilot. The subject was about declaring emergencies.

The story related that sticks with me was a helo pilot who was flying over LAX, and was struck by lightning. I don't remember exactly what was wrong withe his helo, but he felt the need to declare an emergency. They stopped all inbound traffic to LAX as he nursed his aircraft to the ground at LAX.

LAX resumed operations, and then someone in a jeep came rolling up and asked what the problem was...after he explained, the jeep drove off...no questions asked, or paperwork or anything.

Everything worked out for you, which is great, but don't be afraid to declare and utilize the priority and services that are at your disposal.
 
I didn’t declare an emergency because I didn’t find it necessary. I was always taught and always teach Aviate navigate communicate. So I did just that. Flew the airplane, shut down the engine, which immediately extinguished the fire, headed toward the airport. By the time I got to communications, we were flying single engine, no fire, no problems. I let them know exactly what was going on made a straight in landing on one engine, which we practice all the time (only simulated single engine). Not afraid of “Paper Work”, just didn’t need the trucks and attention. I worked as a fire fighter (ARFF) for some time, so I know the routine for paper work. They do it all! I will probably declare an emergency next time but this was my first situation flying. lesson learned.
Mx looked at it and didn’t find any evidence of fire. It was coming out of the exhaust and the only explanation is after burn.
 
Dude, no worries and no one is busting your balls here. This is just hangar talk... and we want the kids standing ouside the circle to hear the wide variety of perspectives avialable from the more experienced pilots (yourself included) :)
 
iFLY87 said:
[ I worked as a fire fighter (ARFF) for some time, so I know the routine for paper work. They do it all! I will probably declare an emergency next time but this was my first situation flying.
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You were former ARFF, and didn't see it fit to declare an emergency when you had a working fire in your engine, however short it lasted?

:banghead:

I'm ARFF; and I'm baffled by that.......

You of all people should know the following that I wrote before:

MikeD said:
I'm glad to see more and more civilian pilots willing to declare an emergency when needed, or even when unsure, rather than hold off due to some fear of "the FAA", or "paperwork." Many civilians I've seen almost need to be dragged kicking and screaming before they use the "dreaded E word."

Now, taking my flying hat off, and putting my (former and current) ARFF firefighter hat on, here are the reasons I'd want a pilot to declare an emergency if there's any reason he thinks he needs to (precautionary such as one-engine out, to the most serious). I brief this same brief to crews at forest fires when my truck is on contract as the helibase/helispot ARFF vehicle; though they normally don't have the same reservations the average GA pilot has in declaring.

- It's why I exist at the airport. It's why the fire trucks are there. It's what I'm trained to do. The trucks and station aren't just an airfield decoration. Use us.

- By expecting you (as a result of a declaring an emergency), I sometimes have more time to prepare for your arrival, rather than you impacting on the airport and I have to get the call (if I didn't witness it), bunker up in the prox gear, roll out of the station, and get to you. Add even more time to that if you've impacted outside the airfield boundary someplace.

- Even if I roll out to the ramp and stage for you, and it turns out to be a non-event, I've still gotten some good training out of it. I've been able to quickly gear up, and get out of the station; checking the time from the call-out to when I'm ready and in-place for you and being able to double-check my response times. All good training for me, even if nothing happens.

- If something does happen, I'm there. From fire suppression, to extrication/rescue, to medical. There will be a minimum delay.

- If you declare an emergency, and you see no further need for it, then cancel the emergency with ATC. Generally, I'll probably still meet you at end of runway or in parking (depending on the nature of the emergency) to make a cursory look-over of your aircraft, and depending on the jurisdiction involved, may have to formally release you from the emergency. But either is no big deal at all.

So use us. We appreciate the business.
-
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Plus, by not declaring an emergency, you shouldn't expect any sort of priority handling. ATC could have left you to hold, or sequenced you with someone else, since being single-engine was apparently more of a nuisance and nothing to be concerned about rather than any sort of urgent situation; with how you stated your call to ATC. I wouldn't have been surprised if they began to sequence you.......am being facetious, but you get what I mean.
 
MikeD said:
Plus, by not declaring an emergency, you shouldn't expect any sort of priority handling. ATC could have left you to hold, or sequenced you with someone else
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I've not "declared" an emergency before, because I was already number one and straight for the numbers. It that changed, I would then continue straight for the numbers anyway and say the magic "emergency" words. If I thought I needed fire trucks, I would just say that.

By all means, any time you think you need to declare, do it. But as long as you are doing what you need to, saying it is more of a formality. I look of it more as a trump card to say if ATC isn't letting me do something I need to. In my experience so far, when you tell ATC what you need/are doing, they pretty much assume it is an emergency anyway. I am pretty sure they are trained not to waste your time with semantics in these situations.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
I've not "declared" an emergency before, because I was already number one and straight for the numbers. It that changed, I would then continue straight for the numbers anyway and say the magic "emergency" words. If I thought I needed fire trucks, I would just say that.

By all means, any time you think you need to declare, do it. But as long as you are doing what you need to, saying it is more of a formality. I look of it more as a trump card to say if ATC isn't letting me do something I need to. In my experience so far, when you tell ATC what you need/are doing, they pretty much assume it is an emergency anyway. I am pretty sure they are trained not to waste your time with semantics in these situations.
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Of course there are specific situations like you mention.......1 mile from the runway, first on final, etc. I'm talking for situations unlike this.

It's not ATCs duty to assume anything for you, they're not in your cockpit. They're not going to waste your time with semantics, but they can't always see whats exactly going on with you, and its your job as a pilot to keep them informed, time and conditions permitting. Declaring an emergency isn't a "trump card", you either need it because you are an emergency, or you don't. It's not a convenience, nor should it be used as such.
 
I would rather err on the side of caution. If I'm engine out, and it is because I shut it down for a suspected engine fire, I'm asking for the equipment to be standing by. I don't care if I'm number one for the field and I'm 1 mile out, if there is an issue under that cowling that could re-erupt then those extra couple of minutes getting the trucks to me could make a big difference. What if the fire had moved to the underside of the wing where I couldn't see it and was doing damage to the gear down there, or was ready to rupture a fuel tank? Stuff like that could turn a "routine" single engine landing into a situation where I needed extraction from a burning aircraft. The odds of things like that happening is probably pretty rare, but there is no down side to declaring an emergency.
 
LOL GOT IT!!!!!!! I SHOULD HAVE declared emergency BUT DIDN'T. Guess its water under the bridge. MikeD about being sequenced with other aircraft, not really an issue at this airport. VERRY SLOW. Sometimes were even cleared to land from 20 miles out midday. And I think more of you would have made the decision I did if you would have been there. Much easier to set here and think of the possibilities and hypothetical’s. MY mind was on flying that aircraft to the ground safely. I knew the fire was out, the gear was down, and we better not have any problem landing this plane single engine since we practice it every lesson.
 
iFLY87 said:
LOL GOT IT!!!!!!! I SHOULD HAVE declared emergency BUT DIDN'T. Guess its water under the bridge. MikeD about being sequenced with other aircraft, not really an issue at this airport. VERRY SLOW. Sometimes were even cleared to land from 20 miles out midday. And I think more of you would have made the decision I did if you would have been there. Much easier to set here and think of the possibilities and hypothetical’s. MY mind was on flying that aircraft to the ground safely. I knew the fire was out, the gear was down, and we better not have any problem landing this plane single engine since we practice it every lesson.
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Hey, YOU came here and posted this here. YOU put it out there. Live with the scrutiny that's comes with it. Part of being humble and learning is being able to say "this is what happened, this is what I did. What could I have done better?" You're the one trying to justify why reluctance to declare an emergency is good. In this case, light area traffic. "More of you would've made that decision"......are you sure?

Fly the aircraft first, thats fine. But with two of you in the aircraft, planning a bit ahead and being able to communicate an emergency shouldn't have tasked you too much......since you practice single-engine on every lesson and all.

You knew the fire was out? Might I ask how you knew it wouldn't or couldn't restart post landing? Great that you found out after landing that it was nothing, but at the time in the air, you didn't know differently, or I doubt you would've shut down the engine in the first place. So obviously you thought there was something more than just the "after fire" going on.

If the pattern or airport is slow, what difference does it make.....I'm speaking generally for what pilots should do vis-a-vis declaring an emergency or otherwise being reluctant to. AND talking how pilots can help with ARFFs response time. It costs nothing for us to be there, awaiting your arrival. But with no emergency declaration you still waste precious time post-landing if something happens, such as the fire restarting, and now there's a ground emergency that's going to take time for ARFF to respond to, when they could've already been in-place.......and it would've cost nothing.

But you should already know that, being former ARFF.

Just all things to think about, in the learning processes post-emergency. Theres always learning to be had.

To answer your last question regards the FAA. I doubt anything will happen.
 
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