Potential Routes to obtain CFI.

C

Claskers

Well-Known Member
I apologize in advance for the long winded post.

I currently have Commercial ASEL, Instrument Airplane, PPL Multiengine and PPL Glider privileges.

I have access to a relatively cheap single engine airplane that DOES NOT have retractable landing gear.

Here is the question, what is the best route to CFI? Do I upgrade the multi to CMEL and do the MEI as the initial, then do a CFIA and CFII add on in the simple cheap airplane?? Or do I just go the traditional route and do CFI, CFII, then MEI? The cheap single engine makes me want to shell out the money and do the MEI as the initial. Anyone have experience with this?

Then the next question, who does MEI as the initial? Does anyone know of a fast paced course for this? What about quality fast paced course for CFIA initials? Either current employees of one or guys that have recently gone through this course.

Currently this is not a career for me, I would just be doing it for the enjoyment and the rewarding experience of teaching someone to fly.

I appreciate any input from you guys.
 
You will need to get some multi PIC (15 hours I think) time before you can take a MEI checkride. Also, by definition, CMEL must be complete before you get the MEI rating. You don't have to have 15 multi PIC before you start MEI training, just make sure it works out to have 15 PIC before the MEI checkride.

If you do the MEI first, you can meet all the complex / RG requirements in the twin then just use a single engine fixed gear for CFII and CFIA.

Back when ATP would do initial CFI ratings for people who did not start at ground zero with them, MEI and CFII were done in a Seminole, followed by the CFI in a 172, in that order, and there was no need for a single engine RG to be used. So that is doable.

ATP did the MEI first at least until some time in 2012. I did the two week, MEI/CFII/CFI program back in 2012, and while it was a fast-paced program, I made it through with no failures. There were 5 guys in my class, and as a group, we had 1 failure out of 15 collective checkride attempts across the group. 1 dude failed the initial MEI but passed the recheck two days later. Point being, the program was doable and successful.

Since you can't do it at ATP anymore, If you want to do a CMEL followed by MEI as your first instructor certificate, you might try Aviator Flight School in Florida. www.aviator.edu. They have several multi programs and can probably build you a package. I know a few friends that went there and had good results. I don't know if they will still do MEI first, but I think they did it a couple years ago.

If you do CFI first, you will need a complex RG aircraft for at least partof the checkride. So that means either do the full checkride in a RG plane, or do part of the checkride in a fixed gear plane, land, then switch to a RG to finish the checkride. American Flyers used to do CFI initial ratings this way in Atlanta. I would assume they might still do it at other locations since their Atlanta location shut down.

A lot of folks might suggest that you get the CFI and possibly CFII done in single engine first, then try to find a school somewhere you could work, then get your CMEL and MEI while working for that company. Big schools and small mom and pops schools have both been known to do that. You might be able to find a company that you could train at and go straight into a CFI job with them afterward. Youwill see job postings on the "orange site" for that sort of thing from time to time.
 
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For some reason, I was not able to type my full response in the previous post. Continuing:

American Flyers has a pretty good (fairly cost effective) initial CFI and CFII program. You used to be able to get an MEI with them as an add-on at the Florida and Dallas branches. Timing is everything, but I know they have hired their own CFI grads straight out of the course who had no prior company affiliation.

I know there are a few bigger companies hiring CFIs right now, with the idea being that you would get the other ratings down the road. Seems like Transpac and Westwind have posted ads or sent out mailers lately indicating such. Possibly Aerosim?

So, to summarize so far, places I have thought of off hand - if you really want to get all three instructor ratings, and get it done relatively quick and on budget, check out Aviator, American Flyers, Westwind, Transpac, and Aerosim for initial ratings. If you get one of the instructor ratings first, you could then try ATP too to get the other two. All of those places might be able to hire you after training. Most of them can probably help you get financing too. There are more big schools out there but those are the ones I know more about who seem pretty reputable and who I know have been hiring lately too.

I think the cheapest way would be to just worry about CFI and maybe CFII first, get hired somewhere, then maybe a future employee can help you get (pay for) CMEL and MEI. If you are looking for 135 or 121 jobs down the road, you can always get the multi time later after establishing yourself and gaining a couple hundred hours of instructing experience - (usually) there's no real rush to get the MEI unless you know you will have the chance to teach multi right away. You might want to get the CMEL add-on done though, so you can take advantage of any chance work in a twin if the opportunity shows itself. Lots of folks never get the MEI, because they instruct single engine until one day they meet the mins for an entry-level multi job (like aerial survey or maybe FO at Cape Air) so you will want that CMEL complete just in case. I would still say to get established as a CFI first, and see if you can't get an employer to help you get the CMEL and/or MEI though.

There are plenty of smaller schools where you could get at least your single engine instructor ratings, but there may not be many that can offer a job afterward, and financing could be difficult at a small school. But there are definitely some that can.

Your ultimate career goal may factor in to your decision too. If you just want to be a CFI, and are not worried about building time fast to go to an airline or something, you might prefer the smaller school. On the other hand, if you want to go part 121 or 135 two years from now, a big school with lots of students for you to teach might be the way to go. Another thing - some places are more likely to hire someone who they already know, having trained that person. Stuff to consider, and there are lots of ways to get it done.
 
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To add on to what @Beefy McGee said, I know a number of places that rent their twins to their CFIs at significant discoun - one place that does 15% off to their instructors on the twins and their own instruction. That's pretty significant when you're looking at a few grand.
 
Beefy McGee said:
For some reason, I was not able to type my full response in the previous post. Continuing:

American Flyers has a pretty good (fairly cost effective) initial CFI and CFII program. You used to be able to get an MEI with them as an add-on at the Florida and Dallas branches. Timing is everything, but I know they have hired their own CFI grads straight out of the course who had no prior company affiliation.

I know there are a few bigger companies hiring CFIs right now, with the idea being that you would get the other ratings down the road. Seems like Transpac and Westwind have posted ads or sent out mailers lately indicating such. Possibly Aerosim?

So, to summarize so far, places I have thought of off hand - if you really want to get all three instructor ratings, and get it done relatively quick and on budget, check out Aviator, American Flyers, Westwind, Transpac, and Aerosim for initial ratings. If you get one of the instructor ratings first, you could then try ATP too to get the other two. All of those places might be able to hire you after training. Most of them can probably help you get financing too. There are more big schools out there but those are the ones I know more about who seem pretty reputable and who I know have been hiring lately too.

I think the cheapest way would be to just worry about CFI and maybe CFII first, get hired somewhere, then maybe a future employee can help you get (pay for) CMEL and MEI. If you are looking for 135 or 121 jobs down the road, you can always get the multi time later after establishing yourself and gaining a couple hundred hours of instructing experience - (usually) there's no real rush to get the MEI unless you know you will have the chance to teach multi right away. You might want to get the CMEL add-on done though, so you can take advantage of any chance work in a twin if the opportunity shows itself. Lots of folks never get the MEI, because they instruct single engine until one day they meet the mins for an entry-level multi job (like aerial survey or maybe FO at Cape Air) so you will want that CMEL complete just in case. I would still say to get established as a CFI first, and see if you can't get an employer to help you get the CMEL and/or MEI though.

There are plenty of smaller schools where you could get at least your single engine instructor ratings, but there may not be many that can offer a job afterward, and financing could be difficult at a small school. But there are definitely some that can.

Your ultimate career goal may factor in to your decision too. If you just want to be a CFI, and are not worried about building time fast to go to an airline or something, you might prefer the smaller school. On the other hand, if you want to go part 121 or 135 two years from now, a big school with lots of students for you to teach might be the way to go. Another thing - some places are more likely to hire someone who they already know, having trained that person. Stuff to consider, and there are lots of ways to get it done.
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killbilly said:
To add on to what @Beefy McGee said, I know a number of places that rent their twins to their CFIs at significant discoun - one place that does 15% off to their instructors on the twins and their own instruction. That's pretty significant when you're looking at a few grand.
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Both of these responses are very helpful. Just to clarify a few things, I have about 120 hours of multi PIC already. I understand the CMEL is required before the MEI. The MEI would be the one I want done fast, the CFIA and CFII add on would come at my own pace once I am back home.

The only reason I mentioned doing the MEI as the initial is it allowed me to use the a "simple" airplane for the CFIA add on check ride, just as you mentioned. Thus allowing me to go shell out a few grand for the MEI initial, then use the cheaper single engine I have access to for the add ons.

I would much rather do this at a Mom and Pop shop just to support small business. The only reason I would want to do it at a large school would be for the experience that the school might have with initial CFIs check rides with the FSDO.

From what @Beefy McGee said, it sounds like the low hanging fruit would be to just go take the CMEL check ride, if for nothing else then to just have it done...

Thanks, guys.
 
Claskers said:
I would much rather do this at a Mom and Pop shop just to support small business. The only reason I would want to do it at a large school would be for the experience that the school might have with initial CFIs check rides with the FSDO.
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You sound like you are in exactly the situation I was a few years ago. I instruct on the side, not looking to make a career of it, unless it is a second career in retirement. I have a CFI-Glider, CFI-Airplane and CFI-Instrument. While I did the CFI-Glider first, it doesn't change much.

The CFI training does not really involve a huge amount of time actually in the airplane, so no matter which route you go, the cost of the aircraft should be minimal. If you take a look at the FARs, there is no minimum time you need in the aircraft for any of those ratings. If you are comfortable flying from the right seat, it can go pretty quickly. What you do need is a spin endorsement, and finding an aircraft that does not have spins prohibited is becoming increasingly difficult at many FBOs.

I studied myself for the CFI-Airplane and CFI-Instrument, and passed both the first time around. Looking back, I don't see any reason that anyone can't do this. Going to a CFI program is fine, at the end of the day, it is exactly the same material you will learn. If anything, studying from the FAA's stuff myself was probably better in hindsight, because when I was asked why something was so during both orals, I had a really good idea where to pull out the source material to show the examiner. The advisory circulars are of particular importance, and there are a lot of them you should know.

I did all of the flying at a local FBO, and in both cases, that essentially came down to doing a couple of mock-checkrides with a few different instructors. If they see some areas to work on, well, you should do that. If not, well, I think it is a waste of money. If you already know how to fly, and can be in charge of the airplane, while at the same time explaining what is going on, you should do fine.
 
One thing to note (just to clarify) about studying on your own: you will still have to get some training by a CFI who has met the experience requirements to teach others to become a CFI (which should not be hard to find), as you must have endorsements (knowledge and flight) to take the checkride. I forget how many endorsements there were for the initial CFI certificate, but AC 61-65 has them listed. I think version "e" is the latest version of the AC, which you can get from FAA.gov along with the Aviation Instructor Handbook, PHAK, AFH, etc which you should probably download for your own study whether on your own or in a program.

Also, when I went through, there were two written tests to take. The FOI and CFI writtens. For CFII there is also a written.
 
Beefy McGee said:
One thing to note (just to clarify) about studying on your own: you will still have to get some training by a CFI who has met the experience requirements to teach others to become a CFI (which should not be hard to find), as you must have endorsements (knowledge and flight) to take the checkride. I forget how many endorsements there were for the initial CFI certificate, but AC 61-65 has them listed. I think version "e"
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Yeah, but a good exercise of the reader when it comes to CFI study. There will be lots of emphasis on endorsements, but at this level, you should be able to figure out everything that you need on your own.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
Yeah, but a good exercise of the reader when it comes to CFI study. There will be lots of emphasis on endorsements, but at this level, you should be able to figure out everything that you need on your own.
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Just to be clear:

My point was to clarify that the OP cannot just study on his own and take a checkride. He MUST go to a CFI with the required experience and be endorsed by that CFI in order to go take the checkride.

I was not talking about the OP studying to learn what endorsements a CFI is authorized to give.

Just trying to make sure the OP knows he will still have to get training from a CFI if he chooses
to study on his own and not enroll in a more formal program somewhere.
 
Beefy McGee said:
Just to be clear:

My point was to clarify that the OP cannot just study on his own and take a checkride. He MUST go to a CFI with the required experience and be endorsed by that CFI in order to go take the checkride.

I was not talking about the OP studying to learn what endorsements a CFI is authorized to give.

Just trying to make sure the OP knows he will still have to get training from a CFI if he chooses
to study on his own and not enroll in a more formal program somewhere.
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That is understood.
 
Right on. Feel free to pm if you want any other opinion :)

I don't know everything but I am willing to share lessons learned (personal and by observing other folks ) along my career so far.

@drunkenbeagle: I think I understand the meaning of your last sentence, and I agree. Just wanted to make sure my other point got across.
 
OP to secure a CFI job i say get your CFI-A and CFII first... Its the most cost effective solution.

Get the job first, pay for a certificate you'll use right away. Not down the line.

Both Question Answered.

p.s. Some schools/academy's pay for your CFII and/or MEI. Infact at minimum, most offer discounts to employees 10-15%.... So think about that as well.
 
Doing MEI first only benefits the academy's bottom line, not students.

Most use loan to pay for ratings... Think of Interest rates accumulated for such ratings not being used.

Thats why i dont have my COM- multi or MEI....

That's alot of money in interest rates... Think about it.

Hope that answers your question. Most young'ns don't think about it, they just want to fly, lolol. You'll fly into debt alright & start blaming everyine else when its time ti repay your debt. If you got the money to blow Go ahead.
 
ScorpioStinger said:
Doing MEI first only benefits the academy's bottom line, not students.

Most use loan to pay for ratings... Think of Interest rates accumulated for such ratings not being used.

Thats why i dont have my COM- multi or MEI....

That's alot of money in interest rates... Think about it.

Hope that answers your question. Most young'ns don't think about it, they just want to fly, lolol. You'll fly into debt alright & start blaming everyine else when its time ti repay your debt. If you got the money to blow Go ahead.
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I will not be financing any of this. I have been scraping pennies to do this. I think the CFIA is the place to start...
 
I think that's both a wise and safe choice.

Also, if your goal is Airlines, some are hiring folks today with less than 25hrs Multi Time. Many go w/o MEI. They rent/time build with a buddy.

I'm instructing w/o CMEL OR MEI. Folks do it to themselves w/ high debt (money not out of pocket, money they don't see). But end up paying a lot more back.
 
ScorpioStinger said:
I think that's both a wise and safe choice.

Also, if your goal is Airlines, some are hiring folks today with less than 25hrs Multi Time. Many go w/o MEI. They rent/time build with a buddy.

I'm instructing w/o CMEL OR MEI
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Right now its just something I will do on the side. I make a livable wage in my current career.

I just don't want to miss a fun opportunity just because I don't have CMEL or MEI.

But immediate usefulness of CMEL or MEI is basically nill.
 
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