Post deleted by Doug Taylor
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Re: Phone Call from Dion Christiansen!
I couldn't have said it better myself! Kickass!
If the guy calls back, ask him why all new hires are being forced into flying for Freedom Air and how much success they've had trying to jumpseat on other ALPA airlines?
I couldn't have said it better myself! Kickass!
If the guy calls back, ask him why all new hires are being forced into flying for Freedom Air and how much success they've had trying to jumpseat on other ALPA airlines?
goodweatherman
New Member
Re: Phone Call from Dion Christiansen!
Can anyone please tell me why this Freedom thing is such a big deal. First of all, I am only a student pilot, a meteorologist, and hold 2 degrees in both Math / Natural Science, and Accounting, so my background is'nt in the industry. Im just a guy that loves to fly. OK, that being said, why is it such a big deal for an airline to be non-union? Or is that not the issue?
I mean, my opinion is that anyone trying to expand and grow the aviation industry at this time should be applauded. I fully agree and understand the importance in american history of the unions, and the contributions they have made to their members.
What I do not understand, is why is it such a bid deal that they (freedom) are not union? There are many flight orginazations that operate without unions (airnet ?). Why should a union even be required. If the airline wants to operate without one, so what. If people dont want to work for a non union company, then they dont have too.
I for one would love it if i had the protection of a union in my position, and the wage increases that they fight for would be great.
All that being said however, I dont think that unions make a diffrence in my ability to succede and benifit from an empolyee employer relationship. I feel that my job security, and my income potential are directly linked to my ability to increase the bottom line. How well do I perform? How much money do I make or save for my employeer? How can I further benifit my company, make it grow...etc?
Now, I may be completly out of the loop and not fully understand all that is going on with this, but I just dont see why it matters.
From a finincial point of view, or investor point of view, the move to non union, or the creation of a non union operation is a good thing. Less overhead, increased profits, more growth potential.
And who's to say that years down the line, when a non union company becomes large enough and profitable enough, that its members couldent then vote to become represented by a union.
I just dont get it, seems like way to much stress over nothing.
I for one would be happy to work for a non union company. I have worked for non union companies my whole life, and I do ok.
I just dont see why so many people have so much hate over this. life is to short.
I guess I am just hoping that someone can fill me in on why its so bad.
I mean, I would love to go to MAPD and get a job flying with only 300 hours. I would even take a job with Freedom if I had the oppertunity. That is unless someone can tell me why it is so bad, and why I would need the protection of a union, when I have never needed them before.
On a side note, I spoke with Dion as well, and found him to be fairly stright forward with me, to the point of discussing the article in Flight Training mag. about MAPD's concen of being able to fulfill the expectations of its graduates. I didnt find him at all pushy or rude or negative in any way.
Please let me know what I am failing to understand about this issue, and why it matters so much.
"apprime salus volatus"
Can anyone please tell me why this Freedom thing is such a big deal. First of all, I am only a student pilot, a meteorologist, and hold 2 degrees in both Math / Natural Science, and Accounting, so my background is'nt in the industry. Im just a guy that loves to fly. OK, that being said, why is it such a big deal for an airline to be non-union? Or is that not the issue?
I mean, my opinion is that anyone trying to expand and grow the aviation industry at this time should be applauded. I fully agree and understand the importance in american history of the unions, and the contributions they have made to their members.
What I do not understand, is why is it such a bid deal that they (freedom) are not union? There are many flight orginazations that operate without unions (airnet ?). Why should a union even be required. If the airline wants to operate without one, so what. If people dont want to work for a non union company, then they dont have too.
I for one would love it if i had the protection of a union in my position, and the wage increases that they fight for would be great.
All that being said however, I dont think that unions make a diffrence in my ability to succede and benifit from an empolyee employer relationship. I feel that my job security, and my income potential are directly linked to my ability to increase the bottom line. How well do I perform? How much money do I make or save for my employeer? How can I further benifit my company, make it grow...etc?
Now, I may be completly out of the loop and not fully understand all that is going on with this, but I just dont see why it matters.
From a finincial point of view, or investor point of view, the move to non union, or the creation of a non union operation is a good thing. Less overhead, increased profits, more growth potential.
And who's to say that years down the line, when a non union company becomes large enough and profitable enough, that its members couldent then vote to become represented by a union.
I just dont get it, seems like way to much stress over nothing.
I for one would be happy to work for a non union company. I have worked for non union companies my whole life, and I do ok.
I just dont see why so many people have so much hate over this. life is to short.
I guess I am just hoping that someone can fill me in on why its so bad.
I mean, I would love to go to MAPD and get a job flying with only 300 hours. I would even take a job with Freedom if I had the oppertunity. That is unless someone can tell me why it is so bad, and why I would need the protection of a union, when I have never needed them before.
On a side note, I spoke with Dion as well, and found him to be fairly stright forward with me, to the point of discussing the article in Flight Training mag. about MAPD's concen of being able to fulfill the expectations of its graduates. I didnt find him at all pushy or rude or negative in any way.
Please let me know what I am failing to understand about this issue, and why it matters so much.
"apprime salus volatus"
Re: Phone Call from Dion Christiansen!
Nope, it's not a union/non-union issue.
Mesa created Freedom to pressure Mesa pilots to take pay cuts and work under a worse contract. More or less if you don't do this, your flying will go to Freedom.
Mesa pilots spent a lot of time getting what little they have and now they're being asked to give up a lot of pay and benefits. I have a friend that has been there about three years and he's barely able to live in a rathole apartment, even though he's flying a multi-million dollar jet.
A current Mesa pilot could do a much clearer (and cogent) explanation of the Freedom Air snafu, but in the meantime, you'll just have to trust me on this.
Nope, it's not a union/non-union issue.
Mesa created Freedom to pressure Mesa pilots to take pay cuts and work under a worse contract. More or less if you don't do this, your flying will go to Freedom.
Mesa pilots spent a lot of time getting what little they have and now they're being asked to give up a lot of pay and benefits. I have a friend that has been there about three years and he's barely able to live in a rathole apartment, even though he's flying a multi-million dollar jet.
A current Mesa pilot could do a much clearer (and cogent) explanation of the Freedom Air snafu, but in the meantime, you'll just have to trust me on this.
Re: Phone Call from Dion Christiansen!
I don't know the details about the controversy either, but I have been told many times that working for Freedom is career suicide, unless you want to work for Freedom for life. Unions have a strong brotherhood. If you go against a union brother, you'll be shunned for life. Freedom was created at the expense of union brothers at Mesa, so you're saying that you don't care about your fellow union (pilot) brothers if you work there.
As far as unions go, I've only been in one union and I think it hurt me more than it helped me. It was at a university and the non-union white collar employees were getting better benefits. Our department head said he would pay us what the equivalent city worker was getting, but the union said a pay raise for our department would set a precedent and refused the raise. So, I paid union dues, got worse benefits, and less pay than I would have without the union.
I don't know the details about the controversy either, but I have been told many times that working for Freedom is career suicide, unless you want to work for Freedom for life. Unions have a strong brotherhood. If you go against a union brother, you'll be shunned for life. Freedom was created at the expense of union brothers at Mesa, so you're saying that you don't care about your fellow union (pilot) brothers if you work there.
As far as unions go, I've only been in one union and I think it hurt me more than it helped me. It was at a university and the non-union white collar employees were getting better benefits. Our department head said he would pay us what the equivalent city worker was getting, but the union said a pay raise for our department would set a precedent and refused the raise. So, I paid union dues, got worse benefits, and less pay than I would have without the union.
Re: Phone Call from Dion Christiansen!
Doug, you wrote [ QUOTE ]
ask him why all new hires are being forced into flying for Freedom Air
[/ QUOTE ] -
Doug - that's just not true. Grads are given a choice of whether they want to go to Mesa or Freedom. Only a few are choosing Freedom. People read your posts on here as gospel....
It should all be a moot point now anyway, because a TA was reached today.
I can't explain why the Midland guy said what he did, but that seems very surprising - I know of people who couldn't get in to the San Juan Program after interviewing. Seems a little strange that they are as desperate as the poster indicated, especially since there is a long interview process, and he called you the day before school started? Hmmmm. Vely, vely strange.
Doug, you wrote [ QUOTE ]
ask him why all new hires are being forced into flying for Freedom Air
[/ QUOTE ] -
Doug - that's just not true. Grads are given a choice of whether they want to go to Mesa or Freedom. Only a few are choosing Freedom. People read your posts on here as gospel....
It should all be a moot point now anyway, because a TA was reached today.
I can't explain why the Midland guy said what he did, but that seems very surprising - I know of people who couldn't get in to the San Juan Program after interviewing. Seems a little strange that they are as desperate as the poster indicated, especially since there is a long interview process, and he called you the day before school started? Hmmmm. Vely, vely strange.
Re: Phone Call from Dion Christiansen!
Hey Doug, you know I don't mean any offense, but the Mesa pilot was misinformed. The guys you should talk to are the guys who have graduated and are in the Mesa hiring pool who chose not to go to Freedom, and are waiting for a Mesa groundschool. A lot of vicious rumours are flying around, and it's hard to tell what's real. It's just frustrating for me to see false rumours, because eventually the next rumour will be that all San Juaners are Scabs (guilt by association). I really didn't mean any offense.
Freedom (or Greedom) really does suck. I can't see why anybody went over there (although only a few actually went). It sucks for them now anyway, though, because they are going to be merged back into the seniority list w/ the Mesa pilots, and there is a list of their names floating around - they are going to be treated as scabs by a lot of pilots- I don't see how they couldn't see this coming.
CSMartin, you always have informative posts, and I'm not trying to be an ass - that's why I didn't say you were wrong, it just seemed strange given all of the hoops it took for me to go through to get into the Farmington program (tons of paperwork, interview, psychological test, instrument written and a Sim ride). I guess they must be trying to get students pretty badly at the Texas location due to low interest - who knows. A lot of the guys who started the regular program here this January applied and interviewed over a year ago. If you were able to start right away over there, it might be a good opp. Who knows.
And yes - I too read everything Doug says regarding aviation as pretty much gospel - that's why I said that statement.
Good luck whichever route you take - and your right, that guy is fool of it if he told you those things. I still want my CFI after I am done here. I think to have the CFI and have instructed for a while is priceless is this industry.
Hey Doug, you know I don't mean any offense, but the Mesa pilot was misinformed. The guys you should talk to are the guys who have graduated and are in the Mesa hiring pool who chose not to go to Freedom, and are waiting for a Mesa groundschool. A lot of vicious rumours are flying around, and it's hard to tell what's real. It's just frustrating for me to see false rumours, because eventually the next rumour will be that all San Juaners are Scabs (guilt by association). I really didn't mean any offense.
Freedom (or Greedom) really does suck. I can't see why anybody went over there (although only a few actually went). It sucks for them now anyway, though, because they are going to be merged back into the seniority list w/ the Mesa pilots, and there is a list of their names floating around - they are going to be treated as scabs by a lot of pilots- I don't see how they couldn't see this coming.
CSMartin, you always have informative posts, and I'm not trying to be an ass - that's why I didn't say you were wrong, it just seemed strange given all of the hoops it took for me to go through to get into the Farmington program (tons of paperwork, interview, psychological test, instrument written and a Sim ride). I guess they must be trying to get students pretty badly at the Texas location due to low interest - who knows. A lot of the guys who started the regular program here this January applied and interviewed over a year ago. If you were able to start right away over there, it might be a good opp. Who knows.
And yes - I too read everything Doug says regarding aviation as pretty much gospel - that's why I said that statement.
Good luck whichever route you take - and your right, that guy is fool of it if he told you those things. I still want my CFI after I am done here. I think to have the CFI and have instructed for a while is priceless is this industry.
Re: Phone Call from Dion Christiansen!
Thanks for the info!
I take a different approach than a lot of other websites when it comes to information I think. I'd like to hear first hand what strange stuff the schools tell you because it always gets back to the school when one of their reps says something crazy. That way they are a little more careful in the future before making wild statements, which in turn, creates more integrity in the business.
Dion Christiansen knows about this website and especially the forums. He has ample opportunity and an open invitation to refute any claims made here.
Thanks for the info!
I take a different approach than a lot of other websites when it comes to information I think. I'd like to hear first hand what strange stuff the schools tell you because it always gets back to the school when one of their reps says something crazy. That way they are a little more careful in the future before making wild statements, which in turn, creates more integrity in the business.
Dion Christiansen knows about this website and especially the forums. He has ample opportunity and an open invitation to refute any claims made here.
Re: Phone Call from Dion Christiansen!
I know some pilots at AmWest that are livid over the Freedom air thing too. Haven't gotten real deep into the details with them, but they seem to imply that the guys that went to Freedom Air basically committed career suicide. Something about expanding the airline by using non-union pilots...
Just what I heard (and don't quite understand)...
I know some pilots at AmWest that are livid over the Freedom air thing too. Haven't gotten real deep into the details with them, but they seem to imply that the guys that went to Freedom Air basically committed career suicide. Something about expanding the airline by using non-union pilots...
Just what I heard (and don't quite understand)...
Re: Phone Call from Dion Christiansen!
[ QUOTE ]
Actually Mesa pilots too
[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly Doug. Mesa pilots were the pilots who were most adversely affected by the Freedom deal (ie circumvented). It's awesome that both Union and non-union airlines put a stop to it pretty darn quickly (ie I even heard Skywest wouldn't allow Freedom guys to jumpseat). The collective efforts prevented what could have been a pretty big mess. It should all be put to bed now though.
[ QUOTE ]
Actually Mesa pilots too
[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly Doug. Mesa pilots were the pilots who were most adversely affected by the Freedom deal (ie circumvented). It's awesome that both Union and non-union airlines put a stop to it pretty darn quickly (ie I even heard Skywest wouldn't allow Freedom guys to jumpseat). The collective efforts prevented what could have been a pretty big mess. It should all be put to bed now though.
Bog
New Member
Re: Phone Call from Dion Christiansen!
[ QUOTE ]
Actually Mesa pilots too. They're carrying around a list of Freedom pilots. Heck, my Mesa buddy got so upset with the situation here in PHX, he took a TDY back out to the east coast for a 'breather'.
[/ QUOTE ]
Dang, Doug, talking about me and didn't even tell me about it.
Yes indeed I had to do TDY because the Freedom mess made every day at work a living he!!. Now that we have our new contract and Freedom is on its death bed, we have to deal with the ire of every other regional airline pilot who claims WE MESA PILOTS ruined the industry with our contract.
Only a Mesa pilot knows how real the Freedom situation was. I can only hope that this situation does not present itself again, but I know it will.
-B
[ QUOTE ]
Actually Mesa pilots too. They're carrying around a list of Freedom pilots. Heck, my Mesa buddy got so upset with the situation here in PHX, he took a TDY back out to the east coast for a 'breather'.
[/ QUOTE ]
Dang, Doug, talking about me and didn't even tell me about it.
Yes indeed I had to do TDY because the Freedom mess made every day at work a living he!!. Now that we have our new contract and Freedom is on its death bed, we have to deal with the ire of every other regional airline pilot who claims WE MESA PILOTS ruined the industry with our contract.
Only a Mesa pilot knows how real the Freedom situation was. I can only hope that this situation does not present itself again, but I know it will.
-B