Possible pilot deviation...any comments from the controller experts?

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Falcon50driver

Well-Known Member
So here goes ....flying along fat DUMB and happy FL410 on our cleared flight plan...realized the rad io was TOO silent .scrambled to regain communications .called the freq and the controller asked me to go to my previous freq ..no answer...came back to the original freq and he ask my position ( so he wasnt my controller,must have changed something inadvertently )i told him, he gave the freq i should be on and i called and she acknowledged my presence ......good so far......she called me back a few minutes later and asked to call this number when i get on the ground....we didnt wait we called from the flitephone( they were startled we called from the airplane)
They explained that we had been given a hand off and hadnt checked in to the next freq.i couldn't really explain it ,i was confused ,the supervisor spoke to the pic and told him he would do his report but did know wether it would be pursued.we were off air for 15 min. 121.5 was dialed in but the audio was off ( i guess that doesn't help).I know its not procedure to call ARINC and send a message thru the box but i have heard of that being done.Don't get me wrong,I don't have an excuse. We both filed NASA reports
I have had nothing like this happen to me in 36 years of flying
 
Its TECHNICALLY policy to forward any NORDO for just a small while to the upper echelon, which I suspect the Supervisor meant about their report. I'm 99.9% sure they just wanted a name or contact so that when they file the N123 went NORDO for 15 minutes, comms reestablished, ops normal, they can fill out that box.

I've seen that same scenario about twelve times this week. You're fine. If they didn't give you the possible pilot deviation speech ignore it. The supervisor sounds like a power hungry moron.
 
I'm sorry to hear about your bad experience. Ever since the Northwest flight a few years ago that overflew its destination, a loss of comm is not taken lightly. In my center when we lose communication with an aircraft we generally try 121.5... call the previous controller... and sometimes even the previous controller to the previous controller. If we don't reestablish communication through those means, we usually call company to use ARINC. I usually try 121.5 and the previous controller method before telling my supervisor "hey I have a NORDO." Once a supervisor is informed an aircraft is NORDO, they notify the operations manager. This is where I see your problem occuring. Most controllers and supervisors are satisfied with reestablishing contact... mission accomplished right? You guys drew the short straw... and most likely had some jerk who demanded to know why you guys were NORDO. If you guys were given a frequency change... and acknowledged it CORRECTLY... and did not check on... yes that's a pilot deviation. 99.9% of the time that's not the way it goes though. Usually a controller gives the wrong frequency or a pilot reads back the wrong frequency. Also, it's not unusual for you guys to "bump the switch" and end up on the previous controller after talking to the current controller.

I do feel bad for you guys that someone felt the need to turn you in. Most of us play by the no harm no foul rule. Unfortunately i've seen too many times where a controller tries to torch a pilot or fellow controller over petty stuff. If you want more detail about the process shoot me a PM.
 
Well the controller relaying the phone number to call did say " possible pilot deviation"
As the pic was talking to him over the phone he thought by the way the supervisor was talking,is that he wasn't really interested in pursuing it,but i guess he has to pass it along the chain of command as per manual. As we discussed this over dinner we felt that there was50% chance itwouldn't go further. We did get an ear full from him though.
 
I had this happen within the last month. Never heard the handoff (maybe they waited too long?) Got a ding from our dispatcher with a new freq. Checked on. It was a non-event. This isn't a perfect system. We are doing it the same way we were doing it in the mid-70's. Most big jets and expensive little jets have some sort of data link, ACARS, ect. It shouldn't be so hard for ATC to push a button and send us a message.
 
DE727UPS said:
I had this happen within the last month. Never heard the handoff (maybe they waited too long?) Got a ding from our dispatcher with a new freq. Checked on. It was a non-event. This isn't a perfect system. We are doing it the same way we were doing it in the mid-70's. Most big jets and expensive little jets have some sort of data link, ACARS, ect. It shouldn't be so hard for ATC to push a button and send us a message.
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Well my friends at ARINC told me they get calls all the time from atc to relay but that its not procedure
 
A stat I personally enjoy will hopefully make you feel better. A couple years ago we had 70 errors (loss of separation) about half were hear back/read back errors. Out of 70 errors, ONE was a pilot deviation. I would wager a large sum of money almost every pilot involved in the hear back/read backs was read the pilot deviation rhetoric and the controller was swearing to the heavens the pilot screwed up. Ego's are an amazing thing.
 
One of my favorite exchanges was with a west arrival gate controller into DTW on the POLAR. Two Flagships of similar call sign, but were answering our calls properly. She assigns us the XPDR code change (and we had no reason to question it, she got our number correct). About 10 minutes later, she asks the other Flagship why they hadn't done what she asked. After saying they didn't receive a call, she got huffy with them, and then to us: "hey Flagship, you took someone else's XPDR code, I didn't give it to your callsign!".

Me: "yeah you did"

Her: "No I DIDN'T!"

Me: "yup, you did"

Handoff.

It's almost a shame she didn't prod further, because I was ready to tell her to pull the tapes and file an ASAP.
 
I was told by a controller supervisor that all pd's are generated out of Washington and they had no control over it. (WHAT!)
I worked several pd's I felt were controller error, reclassified them with no further action.
My problem is if the controller screws up he's "retrained". Pilot screws up it could be certificate action.
Did the controller follow up when you didn't answer him or just give you the freq change and move on.
Call ATC and request the tapes.
Controllers, can't work with them and ain't enough room in the backyard to bury 'em!
 
We are required, at least here, to give you a Brasher Warning when we issue the facility phone number to a pilot when there is the slightest possibility of a pilot deviation. If you didn't deviate from your flight, conflict with traffic, et cetera I don't see how it could be ruled a pilot deviation. If there is a next time, I would suggest you say that you have a communication issue or something similar...
 
RobertB said:
We are required, at least here, to give you a Brasher Warning when we issue the facility phone number to a pilot when there is the slightest possibility of a pilot deviation. If you didn't deviate from your flight, conflict with traffic, et cetera I don't see how it could be ruled a pilot deviation. If there is a next time, I would suggest you say that you have a communication issue or something similar...
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nope ... We were in cruise on our assigned and cleared flight plan route ... He didn't indicate any conflict when called him on the phone ... We did get an ear full but i guess he has to forward all to the next level
 
Falcon50driver said:
nope ... We were in cruise on our assigned and cleared flight plan route ... He didn't indicate any conflict when called him on the phone ... We did get an ear full but i guess he has to forward all to the next level
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Then I don't see how there is any possible way you had a pilot deviation...
 
RobertB said:
We are required, at least here, to give you a Brasher Warning when we issue the facility phone number to a pilot when there is the slightest possibility of a pilot deviation. If you didn't deviate from your flight, conflict with traffic, et cetera I don't see how it could be ruled a pilot deviation. If there is a next time, I would suggest you say that you have a communication issue or something similar...
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He alleges they gave me a handoff and thar i read it back but never called the next controller...... I really dont remember that happening .... Brain fart possibly ? I dont know... But i did the best next thing .... I regained comms
 
Falcon50driver said:
He alleges they gave me a handoff and thar i read it back but never called the next controller...... I really dont remember that happening .... Brain fart possibly ? I dont know... But i did the best next thing .... I regained comms
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That stuff happens. It is possible someone else took your frequency or they said the wrong tail #. File a NASA form just in case. You can always file a NASA form for mistakes and you always should. It is nice to have if the FAA drops the hammer.
 
pilotmec said:
I was told by a controller supervisor that all pd's are generated out of Washington and they had no control over it. (WHAT!)
!
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Partly correct. The reporting system that we've been using for about the last year or two automatically forwards certain types of entries up the chain to regional offices. They review everything and make the decision for pilot deviations. There has been some accidental pilot deviations filed because the computer entry automatically sends the reports on.
At the local level, I'd imagine we could start the process with a pilot deviation and the regional office would almost for sure follow our recommendation.
 
pilotmec said:
I was told by a controller supervisor that all pd's are generated out of Washington and they had no control over it. (WHAT!)
I worked several pd's I felt were controller error, reclassified them with no further action.
My problem is if the controller screws up he's "retrained". Pilot screws up it could be certificate action.
Did the controller follow up when you didn't answer him or just give you the freq change and move on.
Call ATC and request the tapes.
Controllers, can't work with them and ain't enough room in the backyard to bury 'em!
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Dude, get over yourself. The reality is that the overwhelming majority of pilots & controllers are decent guys/gals just trying to do their jobs but of course there are always exceptions.

Just today, I gave a descent to 350. The pilot read back 250. I corrected the pilot. No harm, no foul -- we both moved on. Maybe you should do the same. Plus, if you've had several PD scenarios then maybe the problem is YOU.
 
Uh yeah. I tend to work under the principle that half the read back errors I catch are out of my mouth, even if its an instruction I issue 1,000 times a day, and I will give the pilot an ego out in my correction that reflects I could be the mistaken party. Having said that I had 9 read back errors today. 5 were GA. 4 were mainline. 3 mainline from the same guy. First time he tried to "Climb" to an altitude 1,500 feet below him that would have been roughly 500 AGL that you'd have to put a gun to my head to issue. The second time he tried to take a turn issued to (other mainline that doesn't sound similar nor did the flight number) third time as a departure he tried to accept an approach clearance given to a Marine Biz jet (I mean both call signs had an E in them, so there's that common factor). Nothing further said, nothing further forwarded. I've bent over backwards to not incriminate a pilot who was CLEARLY in the wrong under the no harm no foul principle.

430 am I can understand sorta. Mainline guy was at 915am.

I don't think @pilotmec really understands the question asked. Sounds like a guy in prison. I've got so much experience being wrongfully arrested.
 
spades9048 said:
Dude, get over yourself. The reality is that the overwhelming majority of pilots & controllers are decent guys/gals just trying to do their jobs but of course there are always exceptions.

Just today, I gave a descent to 350. The pilot read back 250. I corrected the pilot. No harm, no foul -- we both moved on. Maybe you should do the same. Plus, if you've had several PD scenarios then maybe the problem is YOU.
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I love it when a controller gets my callsign wrong then gets snippy when I attempt to clarify.
 
spades9048 said:
Dude, get over yourself. The reality is that the overwhelming majority of pilots & controllers are decent guys/gals just trying to do their jobs but of course there are always exceptions.

Just today, I gave a descent to 350. The pilot read back 250. I corrected the pilot. No harm, no foul -- we both moved on. Maybe you should do the same. Plus, if you've had several PD scenarios then maybe the problem is YOU.
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I'm glad you were able to correct an incorrect read back. Good job. Wish all errors could be corrected easily.
The pd's I was able to reclassify we're ALL controller errors with absolutely no attempt to correct. I also worked some pd's that were pilot error but no certificate action was needed and was not taken.
A shout out to ALL the controllers/pilots who correct an error. Errors do happen.


Pilot Deviations are not worked by the FSDO unless they are sent to the FSDO. The problem isn't me, it is possibly the system that has been set up.
 
cencal83406 said:
I love it when a controller gets my callsign wrong then gets snippy when I attempt to clarify.
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What's your point? That some controllers suck to work with? Yeah, some of them do. Everyone is aware of it on both sides of the mic. Just like there are pilots that just flat out suck to work with. It's part of life.

This time last year, there was a RJ that just took off and didn't want to go around the weather the way I wanted him to. Instead, he wanted a shortcut. I told him "no" three times. I gave the same reroute to his buddy right behind him. His buddy took the clearance and went on his way. The other guy argued for 50 miles, finally started making the turn, and then started yelling at me about how I put him "right into the weather!" I told him if he took the clearance 50 miles ago then he wouldn't be in the weather and then he started to BS me about how his plane can't just turn on a dime. Apparently, a CRJ9 is incapable of turning 30 degrees within 50 miles. I guess he wanted me to just give him his shortcut and then I would have taken the existing line of the other 20 CLT bound planes and turned them all out so he could get a shortcut.

Did I think he was a jerk? Yes. Does it make me think anything less of his company or pilots in general? No.
 
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