Poor guy flying in from another flight school

[TheresaPilot]

He probably does. But he's also got a CFI with him. IME it takes a long time for the average pilot to get to the point where they're comfortable making a PIC decision that contradicts the CFI sitting in the other seat.

Perhaps that may be the case, BUT STILL, he obviously didn't know the landing light/nav lights were inop. He should've known that PRIOR to getting into the airplane and think "Hmm... I'm pretty sure these are required for me to be flying tonight..." and discontinued at the get-go.

If I ever felt my decision would contradict what my CFI thought, I would bring it up and discuss the matter. This isn't a one-sided operation.

 

[Joe Gremlin]

If I ever felt my decision would contradict what my CFI thought, I would bring it up and discuss the matter. This isn't a one-sided operation.

Welp, you're the exception and I think things would be better if everyone was like you. But the reality is you could attach the tail to the plane using nothing but duct tape and if the CFI said it was ok, most low time private pilots would accept that as gospel and go fly the plane.

 

[TheresaPilot]

Welp, you're the exception and I think things would be better if everyone was like you. But the reality is you could attach the tail to the plane using nothing but duct tape and if the CFI said it was ok, most low time private pilots would accept that as gospel and go fly the plane.

When you are working on your IR, you shold be making smarter decisions and questioning authority when things don't seem right.

The main point I was trying to express though is that the guy that is working on his IR obviously didn't pre-flight because when he went to turn the lights on (I'm assuming in-flight from how I understand the story), the instructor said "oh they don't work".

Oh, and the world would be better if everyone was like me.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Aircraft rental is most certainly a commercial activity if someone is paying money for the airplane. Now it is commercial activity exempted by 119. That's like saying sightseeing flights are not a commercial activity because they are not covered by 119. It is a commercial activity... just not a commercial activity that must comply with 119.

Yeah, that was poor wording on my part. Didn't come out exactly as I intended it to, but you cleared it up.

 

[XLR99]

He probably does. But he's also got a CFI with him. IME it takes a long time for the average pilot to get to the point where they're comfortable making a PIC decision that contradicts the CFI sitting in the other seat. Not saying its right but its the way it is none the less. If the student knows from experience that the CFI is ok with flying a plane that has a faulty door latch, then how can the student be expected to decide on their own that flying the plane with said condition is unacceptable? They may know in their gut that it isn't right. But if the CFI said it was ok, who are they to argue? It takes quite a while for most pilots build enough confidence in their own PIC decision abilities to make that call. The typical IR student isn't likely to have that level of confidence yet.

True. At an airport I used to fly at, when one particular CFI was doing night flights, many of us would stay on the ground due to the added excitement of having this airplane show up in the pattern totally blacked out, possibly but not always making radio calls. (Rarely due equipment error, though.)
I stress to my students to think and act as PIC from day 1, but you're right that's not always the case.

In this case, though, sounds like a pattern of behavior from the FBO, including a buddy quitting due to safety concerns, that the pilot was aware of but not addressing.
I guess a fair question would be, what's the tipping point beyond which you don't go back to that FBO again? Probably different for everbody.

 

[Joe Gremlin]

When you are working on your IR, you shold be making smarter decisions and questioning authority when things don't seem right.

I agree, you should. But most don't.

The main point I was trying to express though is that the guy that is working on his IR obviously didn't pre-flight because when he went to turn the lights on (I'm assuming in-flight from how I understand the story), the instructor said "oh they don't work".

Well to be fair, that only proves he didn't pre-flight very well. I generally don't check lights during a preflight if I have no intention of using them during the flight. Call me reckless. I'm not excusing the student here. I'm just saying its easy to imagine that he did his normal preflight which doesn't include checking lights (because that's how he was taught) never taking into consideration that he would be flying at night. Certainly not smart, but easy to imagine.

I guess a fair question would be, what's the tipping point beyond which you don't go back to that FBO again? Probably different for everbody.

Definitely different for everybody. And for many people, a lot less conservative that it probably should be IMHO.

 

[Mike H]

He probably does. But he's also got a CFI with him. IME it takes a long time for the average pilot to get to the point where they're comfortable making a PIC decision that contradicts the CFI sitting in the other seat. Not saying its right but its the way it is none the less. If the student knows from experience that the CFI is ok with flying a plane that has a faulty door latch, then how can the student be expected to decide on their own that flying the plane with said condition is unacceptable? They may know in their gut that it isn't right. But if the CFI said it was ok, who are they to argue? It takes quite a while for most pilots build enough confidence in their own PIC decision abilities to make that call. The typical IR student isn't likely to have that level of confidence yet.

Another part of this is that with limited experience and limited exposure to other instructors/schools/FBOs, the pilot might just be under the impression that everybody operates like that. In a lot of cases it takes a change of instructors, flight schools, and/or FBO to find out that everybody doesn't operate that way.

 

[subpilot]

I guess a fair question would be, what's the tipping point beyond which you don't go back to that FBO again? Probably different for everbody.

Depends on how much the plane cost.