Political Views and Pilot Unions.......

Minnesota_Flyer said:
The problem with a union making political contributions out of union dues is that, since union dues are mandatory in a union shop, the union effectively is forcing members indirectly to contribute to political groups with which the members may not agree.
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The PAC contributions are 100% voluntary and are separate from dues dollars.

I've got a "union dues" line on my paycheck and a "ALPA PAC" on my paycheck as well. Most guys don't contribute to the PAC for a variety of reasons.
 
FlyingSig said:
Where did I say that? (Answer: didn't)

Now back to my question to you: what are the ramifications on the career to not having a PAC?
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I was trying to clarify what you meant I wasn't implying anything.

I don't know anything about PAC other then what has been said about it here.
 
We've had issues with a few guys over here saying they'd never contribure to ALPA PAC b/c it always goes to democrat. Those guys are now contributing to the PAC since our legislative committee guys got a hold of the list of who got what from the PAC and highlighted the Republicans that also got money.

ALPA doesn't just straight up say "He's Democrat, he gets the money." They give money to the candidates that support their political views. Most often it turns out to be Democrat, but not always. Doesn't matter if it's a Republican, Democrat, Independent, Whig, Reform, whatever. If their political views are what ALPA agrees with, they'll probably get PAC money.

As has been said, it's not from dues, it's voluntary money spent on top of dues. And any ALPA member can get a list of where the money is spent.
 
Seggy said, "ALPA and other pilot unions are there as a professional organization to help pilots."

Oh. They're helping me. I get it.

  1. I'm on furlough from a major. Been on furlough since 2002. (Like Doug, I was hired in my mid-twenties in 1999)
  2. Yep. While I was on furlough the ALPA unit at my former employer agreed to a higher pay cap.
  3. They eliminated furloughee medical benefits.
  4. They allowed the outsourcing of 70 and 90 seat flying (read: more jobs)
  5. They now support increasing the retirement age to 65 (while thousands of ALPA members remain on furlough??... uh "duh")
  6. My former coworkers are now engaged in a fierce seniority battle with their unwilling merger partners. An arbitrator put pilots at the merger partner with less than 4 years of seniority ahead of pilots who have been active (read: never furloughed) for more than 20 years!! And ALPA national kicked it back into their laps. "You guys work it out amongst yourselves."
  7. They continue to allow more and more scope to be sold and watch silently as scavenger feeders bid against one another for the scraps of the flying I used to do in the DC9. Each time the wages get lower and lower...and the minimum experience required to fly these high performance turbojets gets less and less. Pilots are flying these aircraft with less than 500 hours TT... and they're delighted to do it for 1/5th of my 1999 earnings!!
  8. Now ALPA is supporting user fees which would negatively impact my current position as a corporate pilot. Even while I have no direct interaction with that organization it CONTINUES to negatively impact my career!
Yep, clearly ALPA is looking out for my best interests. Maybe when you're in your mid 30s, trying to raise a family, and wondering what move is the right move to make next... trying to justify starting over AGAIN... hoping that your next move won't result in ANOTHER furlough....

... Maybe then you'll realize that ALPA is a BUSINESS. They will do whatever it takes to appease those who pay the most dues (read: senior Captains) at the expense of those of us perpetual bottom feeders.

I wish i've had Doug's good fortune, or good planning, or crystal ball. But the fact is that the majority of you will endure a furlough, or bankruptcy that will stagnate your career at some time in your profession. And with fewer and fewer mainline jobs available (thanks RJs) you can ill afford to start over again every few years. Trust me. I've done it.
 
On the flip side, without ALPA, I'd have rock bottom wages (as in less than $20/hr, probably closer to $15) at my current job, no health benes (or at least out of my affordability), 10 days off for nearly everyone, no crew room or hotel room for sits > 4-5 hours, pretty much bare minimum or sick days and vacation, and scheduling could pretty much whip me however they wanted to with JMs and extensions.

One man's bane is another man's salvation. I agree it sucks at some carriers, and often the junior/middle seniority guys get tossed under the bus without a thought to save the senior guys' days off and pension plans. But, I know without ALPA, Pinnacle would suck majorly. Same goes with most of the regionals out there. I'll also be the first to tell you that most of the flying done by RJs should be mainline flying. But, don't blame the RJs for that. Blame the mainline guys that said "we don't want to fly them, they're too small." If they HAD said "Ya know, all jet flying should be mainline flying" things would be different.
 
Zap, first welcome to Jetcareers. You have a lot of experience and background that can contribute A LOT to the community here.

Granted, ALPA is NOT perfect. It is run by human beings.

Of course ALPA is a business, aren't airlines as well? Who else do we have to stand up for our rights as pilots? NO ONE. ALPA has been doing it for 75 years and have done a pretty good job keeping the airways safe (remember that is their primary goal). ALPA does protect pilots careers with the certificate and aeromedical services they provide their members.

ALPA national has always been the tool provider to the local pilot groups. Yes it is not always pretty (RE: UsAirways and America West). But how ugly would it be without ALPA? Would pilots be negotiating their own rates to fly airplanes? Without ALPA we would have no TCAS, 20+ hour duty days, no one to go to if a chief or manager in the company is out to get you. Where would we be without ALPA?

You are saying ALPA did not protect you, but what about the America West Pilots? Where would they be without ALPA? I know a guy who is an extremely junior America West Captain. What about him and his career?

Yes I understand ALPA is NOT perfect. But neither is life or this career. It is a crapshoot. The more we as a pilots get involved in ALPA the stronger it will be.

Once again Zap, thank you for your contributions on Jetcareers, hope to meet you one day, and look forward to your discussions.
 
kellwolf said:
Doesn't matter if it's a Republican, Democrat, Independent, Whig, Reform, whatever. If their political views are what ALPA agrees with, they'll probably get PAC money.
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I wasn't aware that Millard Fillmore was still running for office...:)
 
First let me say that I don't have a dog in this fight. I have never worked for an airline and have never been an ALPA member.

That said, ask any TWA guy what they think about ALPA. I know several guys who were hired in the late 80's and mid 90's at TWA who are now watching guys hired at AA in 2000 sitting in their MD-80's. Ask any US Air guy hired in the late 80's who will probably never upgrade to Captain now what they think of ALPA.

Just a comment from a guy who's watching the airline industry from a paid seat in coach.
 
ALPA's an easy scapegoat in both situations, but the real culprit is airline management at US Air and TWA. ALPA gets busted up for not saving the pilots' jobs, but management gets a free pass? What's up with that? Also, let's not forget the arbitrator in the US Air deal. It wasn't like ALPA said "Okay, this is what we're gonna do." If ALPA had more of a say in it, it wouldn't have gone down like it did.

ALPA's not perfect, but I know my life here is better b/c they're on property than it would be without them. Constantly hardping on the failures of ALPA without bringing up the positive things (esp in the safety realm) is like saying the US military sucks and using Vietnam and the War of 1812 as your examples.
 
ricecakecm said:
First let me say that I don't have a dog in this fight. I have never worked for an airline and have never been an ALPA member.

That said, ask any TWA guy what they think about ALPA. I know several guys who were hired in the late 80's and mid 90's at TWA who are now watching guys hired at AA in 2000 sitting in their MD-80's. Ask any US Air guy hired in the late 80's who will probably never upgrade to Captain now what they think of ALPA.

Just a comment from a guy who's watching the airline industry from a paid seat in coach.
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Remember TWA was an ALPA carrier bought by a non-ALPA carrier, where do you think they would be placed on the list? Is that ALPAs fault? No.

If/when Jetblue is bought out, say by United, where do you think those Jetblue pilots will be put?
 
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