PNF logging actual?

NJA_Capt said:
It doesn't say the person(s) or people, it says THE person.
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Of course it says THE person, the reg is talking about A person logging HIS/HER flight time. The whole thing is singular. That doesn't mean that only one person can log it.

NJA_Capt said:
Regardless, it is unprofessional for a "professional" pilot to be nitpicking over a tenth or two. The time does you no good other than landing your first job.
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Entirely beside the point.

One person can not operate a two-pilot airplane alone. Both people operate it together. Does everyone agree on that at least?

The regs are quite clear that if you are operating the aircraft in IMC, you can log actual. It doesn't say a word about whether you have to be on the controls or not.

As far as en employer questioning it, that's fine. They can accept or reject time as they see appropriate. The regs allow you to log PIC while acting as a safety pilot. Some airlines don't accept this time. Same goes for dual received/PIC. They simply don't include it in the totals. Does that mean you shouldn't log it? No!
 
I played around with my electronic trip book and it logged instrument time for the PF and PNF. It only logged landings and approaches for the PF so the programmers agree that both pilots log instrument time and I do too after thinking it over.
 
Why not? Using the logic of most people here, since you are a required crew member you should be able to log the landings whether you are the PF or PM.
 
Ehh, you don't log landings unless you did them at the airlines.
 
So if you don't log landings at the airlines if you didn't actually do them, then why would you log actual if you weren't actually the one flying?
 
what??? It has been mentioned quite a few times that the NFP does not log landings or approaches. Why you ask... because you must be the "sole manipulator of the flight controls" to log the landing (pt61).
 
"then why would you log actual if you weren't actually the one flying?"

I haven't had a logbook in years. But back when I had one, I wouldn't have logged actual unless I was the PF. You can tweak the regs all you want but it just sounds dumb to me to log actual if you aren't even the flying pilot.

Sometimes it makes more sense to follow a norm, or what makes sense, than to push the FAR's to an extreme. That's old school, though. I don't have any safety pilot PIC time in my dusty logbook, either.

What you really want to avoid is being at an intervew, with some crusty old fart like me sitting across from you, and having to explain why it makes sense for the NFP to log actual. It might be legal, but to me, it doesn't make any sense.
 
racers2207 said:
So if you don't log landings at the airlines if you didn't actually do them, then why would you log actual if you weren't actually the one flying?
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Simplest answer: Because that's the way it works.

Long answer: I'm not sure, I'll have to look it up but you'll have to give me a few hours or days on it! :)
 
I used to log all IMC as actual even if I was the pilot monitoring.

I did some research, and before I went in for my ATP I went back and made a corrective value so that my actual only represents the IMC flight time when I was the pilot flying. This ended up reducing my actual time by about 1/3, but in this case, I think it's better to be too conservative than too liberal. You never know when some interviewer might poo-poo you for logging that actual instrument when it wasn't your leg.
 
So, for those arguing for logging it, how many of y'all have been at an airline for more than 2 years?

Those arguing against it, how many decades of experience do y'all have?

Get the point there???

I haven't had to worry about it and have almost 20% of my time is in the clouds, so it doesn't matter, but when I start this new job, I will only be logging IMC time while PF in actual IMC.

Seriously, some of y'all need to get out of the nickel and diming your logbook for every .1 of every type of flying you can get. You're not building time anymore, remember....you're a professional crew member.

WOW!!!
 
Some might nickel and dime. I certainly don't. I follow the FARs.

The thing is, IMC is a condition of flight. If you are logging time in an airplane, you can log the condition of flight. Someone actually suggested the PNF not log night. So what do you log for the condition? "Non existent?"

For those against, try and not let your opinion get in the way of the rules. Don't automatically assume someone who believes the rules is trying to cheat the system.

And like people keep saying, for those already flying 2 pilot aircraft, who cares anyway? It certainly won't hurt/help those of you who even fill out log books anymore.
"then why would you log actual if you weren't actually the one flying?"

I haven't had a logbook in years. But back when I had one, I wouldn't have logged actual unless I was the PF. You can tweak the regs all you want but it just sounds dumb to me to log actual if you aren't even the flying pilot.

Sometimes it makes more sense to follow a norm, or what makes sense, than to push the FAR's to an extreme. That's old school, though. I don't have any safety pilot PIC time in my dusty logbook, either.

What you really want to avoid is being at an intervew, with some crusty old fart like me sitting across from you, and having to explain why it makes sense for the NFP to log actual. It might be legal, but to me, it doesn't make any sense.
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Its not tweaking the reg, it is the reg.

And I've got mad respect for you Don, but your comment is worrisome. If you were sitting on the opposite side of the interview table and asked me about PNF in actual, I'd quote the reg, I'd define condition of flight, and give you my opinion on it. I'd do all this in a respectful manner, fully prepared to remove some time to your liking.

(I'd also tell you the Army said to do it that way. ;))

Never mind there is no way for me to even tell you when I was the PF or PNF while IMC, and never mind that by the time I interviewed with a guy like you a # of IMC hours wouldn't even matter.
 
Stone Cold said:
So, for those arguing for logging it, how many of y'all have been at an airline for more than 2 years?

Those arguing against it, how many decades of experience do y'all have?
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And this is a good point, too.

If it is a common practice to not log the time at XYZ airline, or ALL airlines for that matter, then it would make sense not to log it.

If I were interviewing with Don and he told me not to bring a logbook with any landings at airports starting with "B," well, I'd be erasing a few flights.

Much like the dual received and PIC logged together thing. You hear about some airlines not counting the PIC, and some don't even ask. Who's right?

Whoever you're interviewing with.
 
In the end, your logbook is your logbook. If you interpret the FARs in such a way that you feel it is correct of you to log the condition of flight then do it. If this makes you uneasy then don't. I don't think anyone is trying to nickle and dime their logbooks, we are just trying to enter our times correctly.
 
OK - what about NIGHT - do you log NIGHT when you're the PNF?

If you don't log it, and you don't log IMC, then within that small universe you are at least consistent - although see my previous posts about logging ANY time when PNF.

If you do log NIGHT, but you don't log IMC - why?
 
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