PNF logging actual?

C

Chris_Ford

Well-Known Member
Is it possible at all for a PNF to log actual? I'm in an AIM debate about it and methinks since you would be "monitoring" you could not log it.

So let me refer to you folks, the "Pros". If you're monitoring a leg, do you log actual?
 
PNF in the world of Splitting Time as a Safety Pilot... No.

PNF in the 121 world where you are a required pilot of a 2 pilot aircraft... Yes. My monitoring is what keeps us actually upright sometimes... and vice versa. ;)

I'd equate it to learning in IMC with a CFII... can you both log it? Of course. Why... because the Instructor is required to be there if you are not rated.

Don't have any FAR's in front of me to look it up though...

Bob
 
I'm not. I log the total time and the night time if i'm PNF but I am only logging actual if I am PF.

Hope i'm right.
 
§ 61.51 doesn't say you have to be the pilot flying to log it.

§ 61.51(b) Logbook entries. For the purposes of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section, each person must enter the following information for each flight or lesson logged:

(3) Conditions of flight—

(i) Day or night.

(ii) Actual instrument.

(iii) Simulated instrument conditions in flight, a flight simulator, or a flight training device.
 
I guess that makes since. I logged actual when my student was IMC.

Great, now I have to go back and fix all my hours as an airline pilot. Lets see... that takes me back 2 weeks.
 
I don't log it when I'm PNF.

When I was instructing I'd log it when a student was flying in IMC because the student isn't qualified to be there without me.
 
Hold on...are you guys saying you can log inst. time as PNF, SIC? I'm 99% sure that's not OK. Isn't there an ATP written question on that?

I'm pretty sure you can only log the time that *you* are controlling the airplane by reference to the instruments.
 
zmiller4 said:
Hold on...are you guys saying you can log inst. time as PNF, SIC? I'm 99% sure that's not OK. Isn't there an ATP written question on that?

I'm pretty sure you can only log the time that *you* are controlling the airplane by reference to the instruments.
Click to expand...

Nowhere is there a rule that says that. You can only log an APPROACH if you're the one controlling it. Reference the rule I quoted above. As far as logging is concerned, there is no difference between IMC and night. You log night time when you're PNF right? What makes you think IMC is any different?
 
It's true that there is an ATP question regarding when the SIC can log instrument flight time....The question is:

-What instrument flight time may be logged by a SIC of an aircraft requiring two pilots?

a) All of the time the SIC is controlling the a/c solely by ref. to instuments
b) One -half the time the flight is on an IFR flight plan
c) One-half the time the a/c is in actual IFR conditions.

I think by process of elimination you can see that "a" is the answer. They reference FAR 61.51.

I stick with this interpretation...maybe that's why IMC i have so little IMC.
 
Baronman said:
It's true that there is an ATP question regarding when the SIC can log instrument flight time....The question is:

-What instrument flight time may be logged by a SIC of an aircraft requiring two pilots?

a) All of the time the SIC is controlling the a/c solely by ref. to instuments
b) One -half the time the flight is on an IFR flight plan
c) One-half the time the a/c is in actual IFR conditions.

I think by process of elimination you can see that "a" is the answer. They reference FAR 61.51.

I stick with this interpretation...maybe that's why IMC i have so little IMC.
Click to expand...

"A" is the correct answer for that question, but notice that there is not a MORE correct answer of "all of the time the a/c is in actual IMC". Additionally, did you log IMC as an instructor when your student was flying in actual IMC? Why? Because he/she couldn't be there without you there? Well that PIC sitting to your left in that airliner can't be there without you either.

Justify why you log IMC that way and not night that way please (unless you do log night that way also).
 
Doesn't really matter much to me either way how much instrument time I have...but..

With a student, I was the PIC of the aircraft. Whether they were instrument rated or not.

As for night, it's comparing apples and oranges. The FARs break down logging of instrument time in greater detail than logging of night. It's not just, "If you're in it, log it!" Plus they go into logging of approaches....Logging night time is pretty cut and dry.

Just cause there is a Capt next to me who technically needs me to be there doesn't mean I think I should log his approaches or landings. Just playing devils advocate here.
 
Baronman said:
Just cause there is a Capt next to me who technically needs me to be there doesn't mean I think I should log his approaches or landings. Just playing devils advocate here.
Click to expand...
How'd we get to logging the PF's landings and approaches? That's an obvious, no brainer to not log those...

We are just talking about the time the aircraft is in the "conditions"... whether it be Day, Night, VMC, or IMC... not the "procedures" like takeoffs, approaches, or landings which are performed by the PF.

You can bet your bippy that I'd even be logging my "Icing" time if there was an entry for it... regardless of whether I was the PF or PNF. That "condition" causes more work on both of our parts... just like IMC.

Log me up Scotty...

Bob
 
Baronman said:
As for night, it's comparing apples and oranges. The FARs break down logging of instrument time in greater detail than logging of night.
Click to expand...

Really? Where? I quoted the rule above that defines it. Night and IMC are simply two different conditions of flight. That's it. It doesn't go into any more detail than that.

Actually if you really want to get into it, they go into greater detail about NIGHT than IMC. You have to figure out the whole civil twilight thing for night logging.

Baronman said:
Just cause there is a Capt next to me who technically needs me to be there doesn't mean I think I should log his approaches or landings. Just playing devils advocate here.
Click to expand...

No one said anything about logging landings or approaches, this is just a discussion on conditions.
 
I don't think anyone will call you out if you're logging it because it would be really hard to tell exactly how much time you're in IMC. Now if you are indeed logging it it's not legal. Why? The FAR's say, "A person my log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions."

If it's not your leg and you're not hand flying or operating the autopilot you shouldn't be logging it.
 
EDUC8-or said:
I don't think anyone will call you out if you're logging it because it would be really hard to tell exactly how much time you're in IMC. Now if you are indeed logging it it's not legal. Why? The FAR's say, "A person my log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions."

If it's not your leg and you're not hand flying or operating the autopilot you shouldn't be logging it.
Click to expand...

Alright I left out that part of the rule in my above quote, but it doesn't change anything. The key word is operating, which doesn't mean you have to be the one flying. If you're the non-flying SIC (or PIC) on an aircraft that requires two pilots, you damn sure are operating that aircraft. Not like the landing currency requirement, which says "sole manipulator of the controls", or the approach requirement, which says "performed".

Notice too how there's an extra line allowing flight instructors to log it when conducting training in IMC. That's because instruction is nearly all done in single pilot aircraft where only the student is operating the aircraft.
 
I just called my local FSDO and they agreed that if you are a required crew member you can log the SIC instrument time.

Log away!






Will someone please make a note of the date and time in case I get into an arugument with my wife and she says I'll never admit when I'm wrong?!?
 
Must be a slow day if you called the FSDO:)


I don't really log instrument anymore unless I am logging an approach, which of course brings up the question, how low does it have to be to actually log the approach. My thought is any time you can't land VFR (1000 and 3) you are good to log it. Agree?
 
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