jynxyjoe
Queso King
Probably would have made a lot more sense to say what you mean, yes. No reason to shotgun the pinnacle guys when you don't even meant to say that kind of crap.
PNCL pilots are our brothers! Unity?
- Thread starter sherpa
- Start date
Probably would have made a lot more sense to say what you mean, yes. No reason to shotgun the pinnacle guys when you don't even meant to say that kind of crap.
ajdwings
Well-Known Member
What channel is it on? This ghetto hotel in PQI probably wont get it anyhow....
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Disagree?
Do you even know what we were talking about above when jynxjoe asked why Pinnacle didn't try and Colgan onboard earlier? Pinnacle ALPA tried. The arbitrator ruled for us initially, and that would have led down to a road of one list back then (this was back in 2008, if memory serves right). But then the company made certain points, along the lines of "Holdings" and not "Inc" and the arbitrator changed his mind and went back on his ruling.
This is nothing to do with me disagreeing. The arbitrator changed his mind and went back on his own ruling. Pinnalce and Colgan would have been better off in 2008 had the arbitrator not gone back on his own ruling.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Oh it's Netflix DVD. My fiancee, asleep next to me, is suppose to be watching. I would wake her but she was bored to tears even with Sammy L Jackson screaming at Brad and shooting everyone.
Jeesh, ya know?
The Juice
Well-Known Member
Yes I know.what you are talking about. I read the decision back in January 2008 when it came out. Remember, it never said that the two lists had to be merged.
ajdwings
Well-Known Member
"Check out the big brain on Brad" Could be the best movie of all time.....If i ever get to fly with CC I'm gonna make him dress like the Gimp and I'll drag him around by a chain all day. Come to think of it I'll probably need that gag ball too
jynxyjoe
Queso King
"Check out the big brain on Brad" Could be the best movie of all time.....If i ever get to fly with CC I'm gonna make him dress like the Gimp and I'll drag him around by a chain all day. Come to think of it I'll probably need that gag ball too
Amen.
blee256
Well-Known Member
I want something fair, i would be down for DOH. but not many of my pinnacle brothers share that sentiment with me. But fair is both ways. A straight ratio method that Colgan is proposing wouldnt be fair either. I am a lil better than 50% up the list at pinnacle. if the ration worked out, then you are telling me 50% of colgan guys would be aheard of me, even tho i have been at my currently airline longer than 80% (total wag) of the colganites? how is that fair? Senior mesaba guys have been there 20+ years. I hear there are lots of them at mesaba. so a 8-10 year guy at colgan would be bidding amongst them? how is that fair? while i dont agreee with a staple job that the PCL committee suggested, I dont disagree with CCs comments either. We will all be very interested to see how this SLI comes out. If it doesnt come out like I wanted to, oh well. I wont be able to do anything about it, just deal with it and move on.
R
Roger, Roger
Guest
Oh stuff, I just shot Marvin in the face!
sherpa
Well-Known Member
I totally understand what you mean. I think DOH is a reasonable proposal, though I would stand to lose a lot of my present quality of life and bidding power, I can see the argument that the pendulum would swing wildly the other direction if straight relative seniority was implemented. Right now, I hold weekends off in the Q. With DOH I would likely be holding a reserve line with weekdays off eventually. I feel that the arguments against relative seniority assume that our aircraft and operation are lesser than the others, which I completely disagree with. If all operations were considered equal then, why would relative seem unfair?
The point is, XJ and CJC were both, arguably, reasonable in their proposals and will play well together when this thing is all done. What the PNCL merger committee proposed was out there to say the least. Sounds like they also wanted to staple most of Mesaba's pilots below them as well. It's bad blood and its right there in your face. I have a hard time believing that there wasn't some "direction" givin to the committee before negotiations by their MEC officers to push for this either. I don't think they acted completely alone here. I hope this isn't a sign of things to come!
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Hernandezcfi
Well-Known Member
higney85
Property of Scheduling
Israel and Palestine? Really!? You want to compare corp's shell game to God's promised land and a country given credit by the US government decades ago?
Look- all 3 groups bring different positions. All 3 MEC's sole purpose (in terms of sli) is to protect their pilots. If more than 1 group is happy with a single position, the MEC didn't represent their pilots. This is the one area where gloves are off and each group shoots for the moon. It's that simple. There will ONLY be 1 happy pilot, and that is whomever becomes #1. Everyone else will think their was a better and "more fair" solution in their own eyes. It is an obvious reason why there is a neutral arbitrator- all 3 groups will never agree on a solution because 2/3 would have to let down their pilots to do so.
Look- all 3 groups bring different positions. All 3 MEC's sole purpose (in terms of sli) is to protect their pilots. If more than 1 group is happy with a single position, the MEC didn't represent their pilots. This is the one area where gloves are off and each group shoots for the moon. It's that simple. There will ONLY be 1 happy pilot, and that is whomever becomes #1. Everyone else will think their was a better and "more fair" solution in their own eyes. It is an obvious reason why there is a neutral arbitrator- all 3 groups will never agree on a solution because 2/3 would have to let down their pilots to do so.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
You were fairly adamant about there not being a staple proposed by the Pinnacle SLI team. In light of new evidence to the contrary do you still maintain your position?
Hernandezcfi
Well-Known Member
Speaking from experience, do NOT get hung up over "seniority numbers". It's arbitrary. Our integration was relative seniority and, for the most part, if you were 26% on your pre-merger list, you were ~26% on the combined list.
My number went from X to X+Y but relatively the same position.
Some of our more, shall we say, colorful pilots use phrases like "I lost 3000 numbers!" but actually slightly did better, relative seniority-wise. I guess some expected to go from reserve 767 FO to line-holding 737 captain because that's what his original, arbitrary number dictated.
If anyone is expecting a massive seniority windfall because "my carrier > your carrier", better practice kicking rocks because you're gonna!
Mergers are a big poop sandwich.
Just wait until the culture civil war begins, oh joy. Fabulous. You'll love it!
My number went from X to X+Y but relatively the same position.
Some of our more, shall we say, colorful pilots use phrases like "I lost 3000 numbers!" but actually slightly did better, relative seniority-wise. I guess some expected to go from reserve 767 FO to line-holding 737 captain because that's what his original, arbitrary number dictated.
If anyone is expecting a massive seniority windfall because "my carrier > your carrier", better practice kicking rocks because you're gonna!
Mergers are a big poop sandwich.
Just wait until the culture civil war begins, oh joy. Fabulous. You'll love it!
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Speaking from experience, do NOT get hung up over "seniority numbers". It's arbitrary. Our integration was relative seniority and, for the most part, if you were 26% on your pre-merger list, you were ~26% on the combined list.
My number went from X to X+Y but relatively the same position.
Some of our more, shall we say, colorful pilots use phrases like "I lost 3000 numbers!" but actually slightly did better, relative seniority-wise. I guess some expected to go from reserve 767 FO to line-holding 737 captain because that's what his original, arbitrary number dictated.
If anyone is expecting a massive seniority windfall because "my carrier > your carrier", better practice kicking rocks because you're gonna!
Mergers are a big poop sandwich.
Just wait until the culture civil war begins, oh joy. Fabulous. You'll love it!
Already begun.
As long as we don't adopt the cowboy crap as a new pilot group going forward we can win. Unfortunately that's the only win. My pilot group has the best safety record and culture of the three groups, but there's plenty to learn from Pinnacle and Colgan. Take the best and move forward.
I don't know what everyone else is thinking, and I'm getting to the point I don't care what everyone thinks. I'm moving forward with as little baggage as possible. Yes Mesaba is/was a great company and now that's going to change. I left Colgan for this place and my only regret is that I didn't come here sooner or first, especially with DOH on the horizon. I started off on the wrong foot, that being Colgan, it's fine I did real well here and I continue to. There are always missed opportunities in life. Try not to miss the next ones.
sherpa
Well-Known Member
The possible outcome is not what is alarming about PNCL's position to me as much as the sentiment behind it. I am 99% sure Mr. Bloch sees that their proposal is mostly venom, anger and hatred while lacking much logic, reason and goodwill. The final list will not be a staple and I am sure will be arguably fair.
What alarms me is the underlying ill will toward their future peers. I hope that the future leaders of the combined union will not be of that vane.
What alarms me is the underlying ill will toward their future peers. I hope that the future leaders of the combined union will not be of that vane.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Okay, so the Colgan merger committee thought that all the Pinnacle pilots and some XJ guys in the top two "buckets" would be too much of a windfall. I agree. HOWEVER, the counter proposal they put forth is almost as much of a windfall for Colgan. Based on a "ratio" merger method, you'd have a mid-2010 hire from Colgan potentially a good deal senior to 2008 and 2009 hires at 9E and XJ. It's almost a case of the pot calling the kettle black to me. If they had put forth something fair (like a hybrid suggestion), I'd be a little less critical. XJ did the same thing, but people aren't blasting them like they are 9E. DOH is an EXTREME win for the XJ pilots. Our #1 guy at 9E would be somewhere in the 15-20 range. It gets worse from there. Maybe it's just because the bold part in the original post is aimed at 9E, and that's what most people are reading.
The only thing that's true right now is we're all gonna be pissed off in some way, shape, form or fashion. I'm not so sure it's "venom" as much as it's EACH merger committee looking out for their own pilots. If the Colgan guys put forth something that would have been massively beneficial to the other two groups, they'd have been hounded every time they walked into the crew rooms. I'm glad I'm not on the merger commitee. It's a lose-lose. You get yelled at by groups of your own pilots if you're not tough enough, and you get yelled at by the pilots from the other groups if you're seen as being too un-fair.
And, yes, this is the first any of us have heard about the stance of the merger committees. They "went dark" during negotiations and have stayed that way. It was planned to not hear anything until after the award for this EXACT reason....discord between the groups. Do we need to bring up how we were "stabbed in the back" by the Colgan and Mesaba groups over the whole picketting thing? NOW we want unity....got it.
The only thing that's true right now is we're all gonna be pissed off in some way, shape, form or fashion. I'm not so sure it's "venom" as much as it's EACH merger committee looking out for their own pilots. If the Colgan guys put forth something that would have been massively beneficial to the other two groups, they'd have been hounded every time they walked into the crew rooms. I'm glad I'm not on the merger commitee. It's a lose-lose. You get yelled at by groups of your own pilots if you're not tough enough, and you get yelled at by the pilots from the other groups if you're seen as being too un-fair.
And, yes, this is the first any of us have heard about the stance of the merger committees. They "went dark" during negotiations and have stayed that way. It was planned to not hear anything until after the award for this EXACT reason....discord between the groups. Do we need to bring up how we were "stabbed in the back" by the Colgan and Mesaba groups over the whole picketting thing? NOW we want unity....got it.
You do realize that such is part of our cultural war.
One side came from a world of scripts, flows and dictating every switch change, position and etc. The other side came from a world of "Ok, here's the goal, here's a box of tools, go"
So "they" think we're unsafe cowboys, "we" think they're automatons!
Oh just wait!
Pour up a colortini and enjoy the show my friends.