PNCL Files Chapter 11

[crazyjaydawg]

The company tracks write-ups not only by airplane number, but by employee number. If employee number 12345 historically writes up 5 items per 100 flights, but next month that number jumps to 20 items per 100 flights, then employee number 12345 is probably going to be terminated.

Woah easy there...

Now I don't condone illegal job action, but you're giving a lot of credit to a company that can't track their payroll, their pilots, hell a lot of the time they don't know where certain airplanes are. While you're right that they could track that stuff, this company is so grossly inept at doing much of anything, I don't believe that this would be a serious issue.

But I would agree that if a pilot started doing something really crazy like pushing every flight late and writing up every flight they might try and look back at past records. But our flights rarely leave on time and almost always broken, so it would be pretty hard to buck that trend in any noticeable fashion.

 

[BobDDuck]

As an aside, didn't the "ALPA" guy posting above get recalled? Why does he still represent a block of pilots at the National level? Things at ALPA that make you go hmmm.

As much as I may disagree with Todd about somethings, I would like to point out that at no point in time did I see him insinuate that he was speaking for a "block of pilots at the National level", what ever that means. I do see him making factual statements based on his experiences at both the local and National level, but that's about it.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

They just told our mechanics they were all getting laid off. What do you think will happen to reliability? If it's broken, put it in the book. If they can you, file with the FAA, and then hire a lawyer and sue. I wouldn't fight to get my job back here, I would fight for my golden parachute. Broken = broken... no matter what your history was in the past. I will promise you, if I get canned for an action that is approved in our FOM/CFM i won't think twice about going for cash....

Sounds nice, but it isn't reality. The AIR21 Act provides protection for whistleblowers, but that protection doesn't include punitive damages. You get your job back (after years of fighting), and you get back pay for the time that you were out, but you don't get a big pay day. It's a make whole remedy. That's it.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

As an aside, didn't the "ALPA" guy posting above get recalled? Why does he still represent a block of pilots at the National level? Things at ALPA that make you go hmmm.

If it makes you go "hmmm," then you might want to study your Bylaws a little bit. No longer being a representative at a local level has nothing to do with holding an elected office at the national level.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Now I don't condone illegal job action, but you're giving a lot of credit to a company that can't track their payroll, their pilots, hell a lot of the time they don't know where certain airplanes are. While you're right that they could track that stuff, this company is so grossly inept at doing much of anything, I don't believe that this would be a serious issue.

I'm mentioning it because I know for a fact that they do indeed track it at Pinnacle. I'm not saying not to write things up. If something is broken, do your job. But don't go out of your way to increase your number of write-ups artificially. It will catch up to you.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

I think Todd knows exactly what PNCL management is capable of, and his advice here is only meant to keep you out of trouble -- and is exactly the same thing your union rep would say if you asked him.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

Sounds nice, but it isn't reality. The AIR21 Act provides protection for whistleblowers, but that protection doesn't include punitive damages. You get your job back (after years of fighting), and you get back pay for the time that you were out, but you don't get a big pay day. It's a make whole remedy. That's it.

NJ labor and Civil rights act prohibit terminations for items in, or, reqired by a contract, and or stated policy. Our FOM states that discrepencies must be recorded in the MX log. If you get fired for that, you dont need whistle blower protection. You also have a SOL that extends beyond (hopefully) the Bankruptcy period.

I wouldn't want my job, but I would go for emotional dammages, and lost wages, as allowed by NJ labor law.

Beyond that, terminatin for writting up planes wouldn't qualify for whistleblower protection. If you took the MX pages to the FAA or otherwise, it would be diffrent. Our contract has specific language regarding termination. Getting fired without that process would be in violation of NJ labor laws, and would leave the company open to civil suits. NJ labor law has provisions that allow monetary rewards, stipulation for plantif legal fees etc.

Your state may be different, but NJ has some of the better employe protection laws.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Tuck, you have a lot of misunderstandings about how the law applies to our profession. That's not meant as an insult. In fact, it's quite common among airline pilots. We all assume that the law should apply to us equally, just like any other member of organized labor, but it doesn't. Unlike a local plumber or factory worker, we are covered by the Railway Labor Act, which changes our relationship with many laws, not just state labor laws. Even many federal labor protections don't apply to us because of the RLA.

The reason is simple: the RLA specifically states that disputes between employers and employees who are covered by the Act must be resolved through the System Board process, which is outlined in the Act, and is further covered by our CBAs for airline employees (it works a bit differently for rail employees). There is quite a bit of case law on this subject, so a google search may help you. Courts have consistently ruled that state labor laws are preempted by the RLA. This covers everything from discipline, to minimum wage laws, to overtime laws, and even the so-called "right to work" laws that some states have.

So, if you are disciplined (up to and including termination), then you must resolve that issue through the System Board of Adjustment (the grievance process). State courts can't help you. They just refer the case back to the system board, because they don't have jurisdiction. AIR21 provided an exception for this, which is the whistleblower program, but the process is long and tedious, and you risk that OSHA won't get involved if they suspect that what's happening is a job action rather than true whistleblowing.

Unfortunately, I have a lot of experience in this area. My company terminated several employees for alleged illegal job actions, and came close to terminating many others. The ones that were close were only averted because I managed to negotiate "last chance" agreements for those pilots. Believe me, you don't want to be in the same position as those pilots. None of the options are good, and you don't have much leverage. The law is weighted against us.

 

[jynxyjoe]

As far as the APU, I generally agree. You can always come up with good reasons to run the APU. The back of the airplane was hot, airflow from the ground air isn't enough, etc. It's the other things that will get you fired, and not only will you get fired, you'll probably lose your arbitration hearing:



The company can easily track this data. They know what the filed flight plan altitudes were for your flights in the past, they have the flight tracking data to compare your actual cruise altitudes, and they can compare them to future flights. If 20% of your flights in the past 12 months were flown at an altitude different than your flight planned altitude, but suddenly the next month jumps to 80%, then you're going to get fired, and you're not going to get your job back. Statistical analysis related to alleged illegal job actions weighs quite heavily with arbitrators.



Changing the rate at which you write up airplanes will get you fired, and again, you probably won't get your job back. If you do, it will be from a whistleblower complaint, not likely from an arbitration, and it will take years of waiting for the ruling from OSHA. The company tracks write-ups not only by airplane number, but by employee number. If employee number 12345 historically writes up 5 items per 100 flights, but next month that number jumps to 20 items per 100 flights, then employee number 12345 is probably going to be terminated.

Don't be stupid, guys. Illegal job actions are a bad idea. They won't improve your situation in bankruptcy (or traditional contract negotiations), and they will likely cost you your job, possibly your career.

With most everything above I can only say I don't have experience and I haven't heard of that around here. Furthermore I'm not convinced anyone in power to do anything about it can read or write, that may change because I hear we are appointing a VP of literacy next month. We will fire him/her the month after that and that salary will be doubled and then divided up between our fearless leaders.

With the MX issues, the MX writeups are going up and up. MX control and the front line mx personal are doing their level worst. It's going up across the board and it's obvious to everyone who flies a line. No one is going to be able to tell what any one person is doing thanks to the real problem of MX not doing their jobs.

 

[Firebird2XC]

If it's broken write it up. If it's not, don't.
Based on what I see here, things are broken a lot.

 

[sherpa]

The law is weighted against us.

there are two major problems in this industry that perpetually screws the pilots.

1. seniority system
2. Railway Labor Act.

 

[sherpa]

With most everything above I can only say I don't have experience and I haven't heard of that around here. Furthermore I'm not convinced anyone in power to do anything about it can read or write, that may change because I hear we are appointing a VP of literacy next month. We will fire him/her the month after that and that salary will be doubled and then divided up between our fearless leaders.

With the MX issues, the MX writeups are going up and up. MX control and the front line mx personal are doing their level worst. It's going up across the board and it's obvious to everyone who flies a line. No one is going to be able to tell what any one person is doing thanks to the real problem of MX not doing their jobs.

They are creating 2 positions

VP or words
VP of Talk

This is to help follow the contract better and communicated gooder.

 

[JOEFRIDAY2]

Guys,

I know this is past the point of extreme disappointment. In fact, it's our worst nightmare come true.

I know in the good old days, folks would do everything possible to screw a company because they were really ticked off with how things worked out. In the end, this gained them absolutely nothing and make the situation worse for everyone.

Pinnacle is now a crap shoot. There is no question about it. It really is going to come down to want Delta wants and Delta decides. Delta has helped push the regional airline industry so far down that it's not even a viable business anymore.

In the meantime, as pilots, I am asking you to take the high road and do your job as the professional that I know you are. No matter what happens, in the end you will be better off if you take the high road.

Good luck to all affected.

Joe

 

[SpiceWeasel]

If it makes you go "hmmm," then you might want to study your Bylaws a little bit. No longer being a representative at a local level has nothing to do with holding an elected office at the national level.

So you are saying it's part of the secret inner circle? Who were you elected by? Other reps? That in and of itself is a huge problem. At minimum electing any position at the MEC and National levels ought to involve line pilot voting. How do we know I want Lee Moak as my National President? This is precisely why many consider ALPA a broken, bloated organization. Again with LM, he should not be making 1 dime more than a sampling of pilots at his seniority at Delta. He also has a huge conflict of interest representing me AND Delta pilots. If not, do a better job of explaining it...

As an aside since multi-quoting seems to crash this iPhone, why is it the only organization that wants to tackle changing the RLA is CAPA? I see a huge defeatist attitude from ALPA reps such as yourself. Definitely not the attitude I want carrying my PAC dollars to Capitol Hill.

Regarding scope, I keep reading stuff you write saying outsourcing is good? Please, get E&FA on this so we can get flying back to mainline. E&FA determined Pinnacle wasn't going bankrupt, though, so how reliable are they?

Also curious why ALPA won't do more at the national level to publicize a CEO taking a pay raise while requesting concessions from his workers? We are not going to be industry average because the new CPA modification removes the pilot rate reset.

$600+ a year in dues from me alone. Do MORE!

 

[Trip7]

So you are saying it's part of the secret inner circle? Who were you elected by? Other reps? That in and of itself is a huge problem. At minimum electing any position at the MEC and National levels ought to involve line pilot voting. How do we know I want Lee Moak as my National President? This is precisely why many consider ALPA a broken, bloated organization. Again with LM, he should not be making 1 dime more than a sampling of pilots at his seniority at Delta. He also has a huge conflict of interest representing me AND Delta pilots. If not, do a better job of explaining it...

As an aside since multi-quoting seems to crash this iPhone, why is it the only organization that wants to tackle changing the RLA is CAPA? I see a huge defeatist attitude from ALPA reps such as yourself. Definitely not the attitude I want carrying my PAC dollars to Capitol Hill.

Regarding scope, I keep reading stuff you write saying outsourcing is good? Please, get E&FA on this so we can get flying back to mainline. E&FA determined Pinnacle wasn't going bankrupt, though, so how reliable are they?

Also curious why ALPA won't do more at the national level to publicize a CEO taking a pay raise while requesting concessions from his workers? We are not going to be industry average because the new CPA modification removes the pilot rate reset.

$600+ a year in dues from me alone. Do MORE!

aye ya ya.....

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

So you are saying it's part of the secret inner circle? Who were you elected by? Other reps? That in and of itself is a huge problem. At minimum electing any position at the MEC and National levels ought to involve line pilot voting.

A truly horrible idea. The APA has direct elections of the BOD Officers by the line pilots. It results in an enormous mess, because the three Officers feel that they can do what they want (since they're directly elected by the pilots), even though the BOD Domicile Reps (also directly elected) are technically supposed to be in charge and directing the Officers. The last President had huge conflicts for years with the BOD, because he refused to listen to them, and there was nothing that the BOD could do, because he was directly elected. Since a recall is virtually impossible when you have to get the entire membership of a 10,000 pilot union involved to accomplish it, the only thing that could be done was wait out the end of his term.

Again, horrible, horrible idea. Direct election of representatives makes sense at the domicile (council) level. It does not make sense at the MEC Officer or National Officer level.

How do we know I want Lee Moak as my National President?

Frankly, I don't care. You have no idea what that job entails, and you don't know the people who run for it. The representatives have a much better idea of what the national level jobs require, and they know the candidates on at least a basic level. That basic understanding is necessary in order to ensure that effective leaders are elected.

Again with LM, he should not be making 1 dime more than a sampling of pilots at his seniority at Delta.

Yeah, great idea. I'm sure pilots would be lined up around the block to volunteer to do 20 times the amount of work for the exact same compensation.

He also has a huge conflict of interest representing me AND Delta pilots.

He has no conflict of interest. He doesn't negotiate your contract, or the contract of the Delta pilots. His job is to get things done in DC, and to manage the Association overall at the national level. This presents no conflict of interest whatsoever. If you think it does, please point out where the conflict exists.

As an aside since multi-quoting seems to crash this iPhone, why is it the only organization that wants to tackle changing the RLA is CAPA?

CAPA is useless. They accomplish nothing. When you have zero influence and no one pays attention to you, you can claim all sorts of positions. When you actually have true influence, it's a little bit different. Changing the RLA right now when the House is controlled by Republicans would be a suicide mission. We would end up with some monstrosity like baseball style arbitration, which is what Senator McCain tried to force through the last time that RLA changes were discussed. If you want to change the RLA, then I would suggest that you start voting Democrat and start convincing others to do the same. We need a Democratic majority in the House and a 60-seat Democratic majority in the Senate before such a thing is even remotely possible.

Regarding scope, I keep reading stuff you write saying outsourcing is good?

If you think that, then you must have reading comprehension difficulties. I'm opposed to outsourcing. But I'm also realistic about solutions.

E&FA determined Pinnacle wasn't going bankrupt, though, so how reliable are they?

E&FA did no such thing.

Also curious why ALPA won't do more at the national level to publicize a CEO taking a pay raise while requesting concessions from his workers?

What exactly do you expect them to do?

 

[Trip7]

A truly horrible idea. The APA has direct elections of the BOD Officers by the line pilots. It results in an enormous mess, because the three Officers feel that they can do what they want (since they're directly elected by the pilots), even though the BOD Domicile Reps (also directly elected) are technically supposed to be in charge and directing the Officers. The last President had huge conflicts for years with the BOD, because he refused to listen to them, and there was nothing that the BOD could do, because he was directly elected. Since a recall is virtually impossible when you have to get the entire membership of a 10,000 pilot union involved to accomplish it, the only thing that could be done was wait out the end of his term.

Again, horrible, horrible idea. Direct election of representatives makes sense at the domicile (council) level. It does not make sense at the MEC Officer or National Officer level.



Frankly, I don't care. You have no idea what that job entails, and you don't know the people who run for it. The representatives have a much better idea of what the national level jobs require, and they know the candidates on at least a basic level. That basic understanding is necessary in order to ensure that effective leaders are elected.



Yeah, great idea. I'm sure pilots would be lined up around the block to volunteer to do 20 times the amount of work for the exact same compensation.



He has no conflict of interest. He doesn't negotiate your contract, or the contract of the Delta pilots. His job is to get things done in DC, and to manage the Association overall at the national level. This presents no conflict of interest whatsoever. If you think it does, please point out where the conflict exists.



CAPA is useless. They accomplish nothing. When you have zero influence and no one pays attention to you, you can claim all sorts of positions. When you actually have true influence, it's a little bit different. Changing the RLA right now when the House is controlled by Republicans would be a suicide mission. We would end up with some monstrosity like baseball style arbitration, which is what Senator McCain tried to force through the last time that RLA changes were discussed. If you want to change the RLA, then I would suggest that you start voting Democrat and start convincing others to do the same. We need a Democratic majority in the House and a 60-seat Democratic majority in the Senate before such a thing is even remotely possible.



If you think that, then you must have reading comprehension difficulties. I'm opposed to outsourcing. But I'm also realistic about solutions.



E&FA did no such thing.



What exactly do you expect them to do?

Somehow I get the feeling this a exactly how a Barack Obama vs Rick Santorum debate would go...straight schoolin

 

[bike21]

Late to the party here, but wanted to say good luck to everyone involved in this mess.

One of my buddies at PNCL already got to play the "we have no rooms for your crew because your company is bankrupt" game. Hang in there.

 

[N519AT]

One of my buddies at PNCL already got to play the "we have no rooms for your crew because your company is bankrupt" game. Hang in there.

Yikes. That's not good at all.

I'm sure SM was kind enough and generous enough to pay for the hotel rooms out of his pocket though, right?

 

[Adler]

Late to the party here, but wanted to say good luck to everyone involved in this mess.

One of my buddies at PNCL already got to play the "we have no rooms for your crew because your company is bankrupt" game. Hang in there.

Been worried about that one...