"...plenty of pilots willing to fly—if the pay’s right."

That sounds like a lot until you realize out of the 60 hours a week you spend "working", a full 24 of that is spent sleeping (3 overnights x 8 hours a day). Bringing your workweek TAFB down to 36 hours. Really not that bad in the big scheme of things. 60 hours a week on the road continuously is not nearly the same as 60 hours a week time spent at a job.

My wife works a very friendly 8 hour a day job yet has way less free time than me even at a commuter, including commuting.

Any time spent away from home is time spent working. Maybe you enjoy sleeping in hotel beds. Me? Not so much.

If you live in base this job is an entire different animal. If you live in base with a major and sit reserve, it's 1000x better more so. Friends of mine living in base are working 4-8 days a month. Second year they'll make $100k. I'm sorry but in this day and age you are doing really well with that schedule.

Yeah, I had that airline job. And you're right, it was absolutely awesome. But then it was ripped from my clutches, and I was left with a commuting gig at an airline with non-commutable schedules. The same can happen to any airline pilot. The list of closed domiciles is long and distinguished.
 
You're still not listening. You continue to ignore the fact that I'm speaking in favor of blue collar skilled trades. But ok, John. You believe that college is the be-all, end-all, so no reason to keep discussing this with you. You're entrenched.

I didn't bring up college, you did! My example was only to say that the training mimicked the schedule once you get out.

You said that it's not possible for anybody to have a worse schedule than working at an airline.

I told you how it was possible.

You launched off about how college graduates are all in saturated job markets, which had nothing to do with schedules at professional jobs vs schedules at airlines.

I told you that this missed the mark.

You continue to launch off about college.

You might think college is worthless, but they teach you how to read critically and STAY ON POINT.
 
I didn't bring up college, you did!

You said that it's not possible for anybody to have a worse schedule than working at an airline.

I told you how it was possible.

No, I said I didn't see how it was possible for a cubicle dweller. Not an attorney. Not a doctor. Try to keep up, John.
 
Cubicle dweller, cubicle dweller...nope, don't see that anywhere in the thread.

Then you might want to use those precious critical reading skills that college taught you and see that I was talking to @GypsyPilot in that post, who described himself as working in a cubicle. Really, John, you're just trying to be a dick because someone is challenging your views on the value of college. Is it not possible to have a debate with you anymore without you being a condescending jackass?
 
Any time spent away from home is time spent working. Maybe you enjoy sleeping in hotel beds. Me? Not so much.

I'm realistic enough to understand that sleeping in a bed isn't the same as being at work during the day.

Yeah, I had that airline job. And you're right, it was absolutely awesome. But then it was ripped from my clutches, and I was left with a commuting gig at an airline with non-commutable schedules. The same can happen to any airline pilot. The list of closed domiciles is long and distinguished.
Boo hoo.
 
Jtrain doesnt buy what ATN is selling and ATN doesnt buy what Jtrain is selling. I think we can agree on. That being said nobody cares to read a pissing match. Get along or move along..... It's really that simple.
 
In regular "jobs," like mine, employers expect 50-60 hours actually worked per week. Not away from home, hours worked. Mine only counts time spent that is billable to a client, while work done on their behalf, like writing proposals, internal accounting, travel time, etc, does not count as work. 550 hours away from home per month is not at all unusual.
Which is why the flying is my primary job and the computing is my secondary job.

It just wasn't worth it.
 
Yes, but remember Train, I'm not arguing in favor of that sort of job. That's a saturated job market, just like most job markets for college educated people. I'm arguing in favor of jobs for skilled trades. Things like HVAC repair, welding, large diesel engine repair, etc. These are largely 9-5 jobs without a responsibility to be answering your phone or emails 24/7.

Check out Mike Rowe's web site dealing in this: http://profoundlydisconnected.com/ He's doing excellent work in spreading the word that a college education is not necessarily the best path for everyone, and there is good money and good QOL to be had in the skilled trades in this country.
Got a buddy doing HVAC who is consistently out of town for contracts his company picks up. He is on the road more than pilots working ACMI jobs.
 
I think you know that's an exception rather than the rule in the HVAC business. I know quite a few people who do that work.
And that industry is just like the airlines. You start out as a "helper" out of trade school making $8-$12/hr depending on locality. If you're lucky you'll get to $15/hr doing house calls. The guys doing the install work don't make as much they are mostly turn and burn. Eventually if you get lucky you can get out of residential and into commercial work where the "big money" is. By "big money" I mean $40k maybe $50k if you work 24/7 and are on call. Some might hit $75k but they are few and far between and in the bigger cities. You think airline reserve life is harsh? How about being on call throughout the night and weekend and not getting paid any for it unless you are called out? Personally I think that life would suck.

The big big money (if you are LUCKY you'll hit 100k eventually) is in the design portion of the job. Guys who are HVAC qualified but also have an engineering degree can make decent money in a "normal-ish" job but it takes time to get there. And the jobs are few and far between.

I looked into doing HVAC on my time off with an EPA 608 cert and found it just wasn't worth it. The time it takes to start making any kind of money, working out doors sweating/freezing your cojones off you are better off on 2nd year RJ pay.

Your view of life/jobs is quite eye opening.
 
Got a buddy doing HVAC who is consistently out of town for contracts his company picks up. He is on the road more than pilots working ACMI jobs.
HVAC guys work a lot and the money is either there or not, the calls come in waves (summer/winter). A lot of companies are getting out of the hourly game and going flat rate - that is you have a house call and the problem is "no heat/no cool". That pays a certainly amount (say 0.8) and you get your hourly rate X that time. If you go over that is on you, and unpaid. Guys are constantly pushed to "sell sell sell" and get a commission based off of the total ticket (can you say conflict of interest?!?). The job is almost always outdoors in the extreme temps, especially for the commercial guys up on the roof tops. It's not all it's cracked up to be. I investigated it heavily as I'm interested in it but I found I could make way more even as an FO at a commuter picking up one day of open time than working a month on my days off at an HVAC job.
 
And that industry is just like the airlines. You start out as a "helper" out of trade school making $8-$12/hr depending on locality. If you're lucky you'll get to $15/hr doing house calls. The guys doing the install work don't make as much they are mostly turn and burn. Eventually if you get lucky you can get out of residential and into commercial work where the "big money" is. By "big money" I mean $40k maybe $50k if you work 24/7 and are on call. Some might hit $75k but they are few and far between and in the bigger cities. You think airline reserve life is harsh? How about being on call throughout the night and weekend and not getting paid any for it unless you are called out? Personally I think that life would suck.

All of this information is available publicly. The average starting pay for an HVAC tech right out of school is just a bit under $30k. Average pay for everyone in the business is about $45k. Top pay for a tech (not a supervisor, just a regular technician) is just under $70k. Those are typically the top-out jobs doing heavy commercial work, which takes a while to get to.

Your view of life/jobs is quite eye opening.

Same to you. It never ceases to amaze me how people will justify atrocious wages and QOL in the airline industry. Half your life away from home making $20k/yr to start with six figures in student loan debt. Unbelievable.
 
On a side not- do the guys in the picture look like real pilots to you guys?

pilots.jpg

Fixed.
 
All of this information is available publicly. The average starting pay for an HVAC tech right out of school is just a bit under $30k. Average pay for everyone in the business is about $45k. Top pay for a tech (not a supervisor, just a regular technician) is just under $70k. Those are typically the top-out jobs doing heavy commercial work, which takes a while to get to.

So I've seen it's around 4 months to 1 year to get an HVAC certificate, which is pretty much the same timeframe training for a regional took under the current pay structure. There were exceptions that have always required a year or two of minimum experience, but many of the regionals were hiring people out of programs that prided themselves on only taking several months from 0 to multi-commercial.

Obviously they cost is higher for learning to fly, but other than that, the entry qualifications to both fields are pretty much the same then: a year or less of technical training. First year airline pay may be only 75% or the HVAC starting pay, but an HVAC tech doesn't incur $30K in training costs in the first 6 weeks while contributing nothing to revenue either. After that, I doubt it takes long for airline pay to get higher--mean and top-end pay for non-managers is certainly higher at regionals.

Regional airline compensation is based on--and reflects--entry requirements that don't include a college degree or any other time-consuming training or building of experience. People will work for cheap if 1) they don't have to do much to get the job other than take out a loan; 2) top-end pay is *way* better than what they could expect with a similar investment of time and education; and 3) the job is actually fun and challenging.

We like to ignore that last part, especially after getting comfortable with a plane/seat/geographic area, but the simple fact is that flying an airliner is a pretty awesome and challenging job (or if it's not, you're doing it wrong). I would love to see some kind of survey on the job satisfaction of people who have left aviation for other careers and how they compare to flying. I left three years ago and am in about as good a career position as anyone could hope for (at a top-tier company that compensates/treats their employees excellently, working in a really exciting area) and I still am sitting here on a pilot forum. I have no idea if I made the right choice or not, but I miss flying daily and I'll likely always have at least a little regret about it.

Same to you. It never ceases to amaze me how people will justify atrocious wages and QOL in the airline industry. Half your life away from home making $20k/yr to start with six figures in student loan debt. Unbelievable.

I'm not trying to come across as a total phallus here, but from my perspective it seems to me that flying has not been all that bad to you. There are *very* few careers that offer Southwest FO pay without a 4-year degree, and almost none other than entertainment or athletics that approach SWA CA pay without one. The trades may be have comparable pay for the most inherently business-savvy who can create and grow their businesses, but I'd be really interested to see what percentage get to that level.

There's really no way for me to quantify my "TAFJ" (Time Away From Job) hours that I currently have compared to what I dealt with in my 8-5 cubicle days. Yeah, I may have been present in my living space more back then, but I sure as hell didn't have more free time back then.

This. My wife hated the time away when I was flying, but she's in for a rude awakening if I stay in this field because 1) it takes a ton of time and 2) when I get home, I think about all the work I have left to do.
 
All of this information is available publicly. The average starting pay for an HVAC tech right out of school is just a bit under $30k. Average pay for everyone in the business is about $45k. Top pay for a tech (not a supervisor, just a regular technician) is just under $70k. Those are typically the top-out jobs doing heavy commercial work, which takes a while to get to.

Publicly? By publicly you mean "on the internet"?

HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA

OK

According to "the internet" (US Dept of Labor) airline pilot median pay is $114,200 a year!

Same to you. It never ceases to amaze me how people will justify atrocious wages and QOL in the airline industry. Half your life away from home making $20k/yr to start with six figures in student loan debt. Unbelievable.

I wrote something here but it's not important. Needless to say if people knew your background they would have zero respect for what you wrote above.
 
So I've seen it's around 4 months to 1 year to get an HVAC certificate, which is pretty much the same timeframe training for a regional took under the current pay structure. There were exceptions that have always required a year or two of minimum experience, but many of the regionals were hiring people out of programs that prided themselves on only taking several months from 0 to multi-commercial.

For virtually all of regional airline history, having at least 1,500 hours was the minimum to get hired. It was a small sliver of time that allowed you to get hired right after getting your ratings. And since getting to the majors requires a college degree, everyone starts out getting that, too, which eats up four years and tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of dollars.

We like to ignore that last part, especially after getting comfortable with a plane/seat/geographic area, but the simple fact is that flying an airliner is a pretty awesome and challenging job (or if it's not, you're doing it wrong).

Apparently I'm "doing it wrong."

I'm not trying to come across as a total phallus here, but from my perspective it seems to me that flying has not been all that bad to you.

It wasn't. Until recently, my career was golden. I had no complaints (or at least very few). But we're talking about people getting into it now, not about how my career was. In my estimation, anyone who is going to benefit from the coming hiring wave is already hired at a regional and just waiting on their slot. Everyone who hasn't started yet will be coming in at the trailing end of the hiring wave, and will be stuck at the regionals for a long time. And then they'll be stuck on the bottom of the seniority list as furlough fodder for many years when they finally do get to a major. And for that "privilege," they need to pay six figures to get started and live on poverty wages. I don't believe it makes sense anymore. Sorry.
 
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