"...plenty of pilots willing to fly—if the pay’s right."

Dugie8 said:
Hell. I lift more in one training session than a drywaller does in a week. I'll be competing well past my 40s.
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I love powerlifting as well as the Olympic lifts. Every free day I have is spent outdoors working my ass off, doing stuff I enjoy. That has absolutely no comparison to tearing your body up at a job site.

When I was a kid, I spent a lot of time at the job site with my Dad. It was tough, brutal work. He eventually got seriously hurt (destroyed his knee kicking carpet), and had to go back to school in his '40s. Once he was done with his career change, he became much healthier and ironically much more physically active. Like me now, he spent all his free time out in the mountains climbing and mountain biking (it actually helped his knee big time).

The point is, doing controlled physical exercise in your off time is nothing like tearing up your body doing physical stuff all day. At least from what I've seen and experienced, in person.
 
GypsyPilot said:
Nope. Not even close. I have WAY more FREE time at home than I ever have in my life.
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I don't see how that's possible, unless you're dropping all kinds of flying. Looking at our lines, which are pretty efficient thanks to our CBA, average TAFB is around 260 hours. That's about 60 hours a week. Many regionals have TAFBs over 300 hours. And that's not even figuring in the hours wasted on employee buses, security, etc. Actual hours spent away from home are probably averaging in the 65 hours a week range. That's atrocious for someone who isn't making huge money. And pilots aren't. Even at the majors.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I don't see how that's possible, unless you're dropping all kinds of flying. Looking at our lines, which are pretty efficient thanks to our CBA, average TAFB is around 260 hours. That's about 60 hours a week. Many regionals have TAFBs over 300 hours. And that's not even figuring in the hours wasted on employee buses, security, etc. Actual hours spent away from home are probably averaging in the 65 hours a week range. That's atrocious for someone who isn't making huge money. And pilots aren't. Even at the majors.
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Well then let me help you out!

My average day when I was back in school was about 12 hours long. Add in an hour commute each way, and I was away from home 14 hours per day, but let's just call it 12 for easy math. I did that 6 days a week, and frankly I only had classes 4 days a week. Those extra two days were necessary to be ready for class the next week, research, etc.

So that's 72 hours per week as a baseline.

Add in the commute time and we're talking about 84 hours per week.

The schedule coincided pretty well with what you'd be doing once you were practicing.

So I had one day off per week, for four years, where I could do things normal people do. In working a four day every week, I suddenly go from having 4 days off in a month to having 12, and when I get home from work now my work is DONE. I don't come home thinking about running checklists, I think about going to play with my kid.

I've never had more time off when when I was working at an airline.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I don't see how that's possible, unless you're dropping all kinds of flying. Looking at our lines, which are pretty efficient thanks to our CBA, average TAFB is around 260 hours. That's about 60 hours a week. Many regionals have TAFBs over 300 hours. And that's not even figuring in the hours wasted on employee buses, security, etc. Actual hours spent away from home are probably averaging in the 65 hours a week range. That's atrocious for someone who isn't making huge money. And pilots aren't. Even at the majors.
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ATN,

There's really no way for me to quantify my "TAFJ" (Time Away From Job) hours that I currently have compared to what I dealt with in my 8-5 cubicle days. Yeah, I may have been present in my living space more back then, but I sure as hell didn't have more free time back then.

I'm really, really glad I worked the 8-5 rat race for a few years prior to becoming a professional pilot. I have a perspective that those that have only flown do not. I consider myself lucky to have it.
 
Yes, but remember Train, I'm not arguing in favor of that sort of job. That's a saturated job market, just like most job markets for college educated people. I'm arguing in favor of jobs for skilled trades. Things like HVAC repair, welding, large diesel engine repair, etc. These are largely 9-5 jobs without a responsibility to be answering your phone or emails 24/7.

Check out Mike Rowe's web site dealing in this: http://profoundlydisconnected.com/ He's doing excellent work in spreading the word that a college education is not necessarily the best path for everyone, and there is good money and good QOL to be had in the skilled trades in this country.
 
GypsyPilot said:
ATN,

There's really no way for me to quantify my "TAFJ" (Time Away From Job) hours that I currently have compared to what I dealt with in my 8-5 cubicle days. Yeah, I may have been present in my living space more back then, but I sure as hell didn't have more free time back then.

I'm really, really glad I worked the 8-5 rat race for a few years prior to becoming a professional pilot. I have a perspective that those that have only flown do not. I consider myself lucky to have it.
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Sounds like you just had a crappy job.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Sounds like you just had a crappy job.
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No. I had a normal job. That's just how it is for most people. Seriously man, do you not know that?

I'm getting ready to start 9 days off, as part of my normal schedule. This is my "weekend" if you will. I'll be hanging out in Moab, hiking around the desert. My phone will be off, I don't have to give any thoughts towards work. That is not normal for most people.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Yes, but remember Train, I'm not arguing in favor of that sort of job. That's a saturated job market, just like most job markets for college educated people. I'm arguing in favor of jobs for skilled trades. Things like HVAC repair, welding, large diesel engine repair, etc. These are largely 9-5 jobs without a responsibility to be answering your phone or emails 24/7.

Check out Mike Rowe's web site dealing in this: http://profoundlydisconnected.com/ He's doing excellent work in spreading the word that a college education is not necessarily the best path for everyone, and there is good money and good QOL to be had in the skilled trades in this country.
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A saturated job market produces fewer jobs, not jobs that require you to work 80 hours a week.

So would you like to try again?
 
GypsyPilot said:
No. I had a normal job. That's just how it is for most people. Seriously man, do you not know that?

I'm getting ready to start 9 days off, as part of my normal schedule. This is my "weekend" if you will. I'll be hanging out in Moab, hiking around the desert. My phone will be off, I don't have to give any thoughts towards work. That is not normal for most people.
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Those 9 days are great, but they don't make up for the 50-67% of total days spent on the road, which is what most pilots deal with. But if you're enjoying it, then more power to you, man! I'm glad you're happy. I just think it's disingenuous to make flying sound like a paid vacation to all of the up-and-coming pilots. They'll be in for a rude awakening when they're on day 5 of a 5 day trip, trying to remember what their family looks like.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
That's about 60 hours a week. Many regionals have TAFBs over 300 hours. And that's not even figuring in the hours wasted on employee buses, security, etc. Actual hours spent away from home are probably averaging in the 65 hours a week range. That's atrocious for someone who isn't making huge money. And pilots aren't. Even at the majors.
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In regular "jobs," like mine, employers expect 50-60 hours actually worked per week. Not away from home, hours worked. Mine only counts time spent that is billable to a client, while work done on their behalf, like writing proposals, internal accounting, travel time, etc, does not count as work. 550 hours away from home per month is not at all unusual.
 
jtrain609 said:
A saturated job market produces fewer jobs, not jobs that require you to work 80 hours a week.

So would you like to try again?
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No, but I think you should try again. A saturated job market makes the people who do have a decent job think that they have to work their asses off to remain employed. So when their employer tells them to work an 80 hour work week and answer their phones and emails 24/7, they have to do so. The employer makes out like a bandit by getting 50-100% more productivity out of the employee for the same amount of money, because if the employee isn't willing to put up with it, the employer can fire his ass and replace him with one of the many thousands of available replacements.

In a non-saturated market, the employee is in the driver's seat. If an employer wants him to work 60 hours, the employee can tell him to screw off, and go get a better job since plenty of them are available with few workers competing.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
In regular "jobs," like mine, employers expect 50-60 hours actually worked per week. Not away from home, hours worked. Mine only counts time spent that is billable to a client, while work done on their behalf, like writing proposals, internal accounting, travel time, etc, does not count as work. 550 hours away from home per month is not at all unusual.
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Again, as I said to the Train, we're talking past each other here. You're talking about white collar jobs for college educated people. I'm talking blue collar skilled trades jobs. I acknowledge that corporate America is screwing over white collar college educated workers and making them glorified slaves. And they do it because they can. There are so many college educated workers available that companies have no reason to treat them as anything other than numbers on a balance sheet that can be bullied and coerced into working like dogs. The skilled trades are a different world, though.
 
Generation gap here...I don't know anyone fresh out of trade school or college that's making 50 grand.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
No, but I think you should try again. A saturated job market makes the people who do have a decent job think that they have to work their asses off to remain employed. So when their employer tells them to work an 80 hour work week and answer their phones and emails 24/7, they have to do so. The employer makes out like a bandit by getting 50-100% more productivity out of the employee for the same amount of money, because if the employee isn't willing to put up with it, the employer can fire his ass and replace him with one of the many thousands of available replacements.

In a non-saturated market, the employee is in the driver's seat. If an employer wants him to work 60 hours, the employee can tell him to screw off, and go get a better job since plenty of them are available with few workers competing.
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You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about when it comes to professional fields.

Read up: http://www.law.yale.edu/studentlife/cdobrochureshandouts_truthaboutthebillablehour.htm
 
jtrain609 said:
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about when it comes to professional fields.

Read up: http://www.law.yale.edu/studentlife/cdobrochureshandouts_truthaboutthebillablehour.htm
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Very true. It also leaves out the "non-billable" time that you spend traveling to see clients. Which used to be billable, but since clients mostly have negotiated away payment for that time, it no longer counts. Since they aren't paying for that time, they have no problem having you fly all over the place for meetings. On your own time, of course.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I don't see how that's possible, unless you're dropping all kinds of flying. Looking at our lines, which are pretty efficient thanks to our CBA, average TAFB is around 260 hours. That's about 60 hours a week. Many regionals have TAFBs over 300 hours. And that's not even figuring in the hours wasted on employee buses, security, etc. Actual hours spent away from home are probably averaging in the 65 hours a week range. That's atrocious for someone who isn't making huge money. And pilots aren't. Even at the majors.
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That sounds like a lot until you realize out of the 60 hours a week you spend "working", a full 24 of that is spent sleeping (3 overnights x 8 hours a day). Bringing your workweek TAFB down to 36 hours. Really not that bad in the big scheme of things. 60 hours a week on the road continuously is not nearly the same as 60 hours a week time spent at a job.

My wife works a very friendly 8 hour a day job yet has way less free time than me even at a commuter, including commuting.

If you live in base this job is an entire different animal. If you live in base with a major and sit reserve, it's 1000x better more so. Friends of mine living in base are working 4-8 days a month. Second year they'll make $100k. I'm sorry but in this day and age you are doing really well with that schedule.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
In regular "jobs," like mine, employers expect 50-60 hours actually worked per week. Not away from home, hours worked. Mine only counts time spent that is billable to a client, while work done on their behalf, like writing proposals, internal accounting, travel time, etc, does not count as work. 550 hours away from home per month is not at all unusual.
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You're traveling 20+ days a month....? Might as well be a pilot, you'd be home more.... ;-)
 
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