Please explain unions to me.

[jhugz]

Can someone explain to me what bargaining power does a union like ALPA have? If they don't agree with an issue what can they do? NOTHING. It is not like they can have there workforce go on strike. A union's only bargaining tool is to strike. The aviation industry obviously doesn't have that so unions get walked all over. It is very obvious to see that is what happened with the whole GoJets fiasco. ALPA didn't have enough bargaining power so TSA walked away from the table and there was NOTHING I say again NOTHING that ALPA could do. Unions are a waste of money especially when all there doing is helping make that coveted 20k a year in this industry. If a company screws you like some of the examples above...hire an aviation attorney and take them to court.

 

[Velocipede]

:banghead:

 

[MQAAord]

If a company screws you like some of the examples above...hire an aviation attorney and take them to court.

Let's say someone works for a non-union carrier, and is an at-will employee. You can be fired for any reason without recourse. So let's again use that example of the botched drug test. Now you're fired, you're an at-will employee so no aviation lawyer is going to get you your job back. AND you've now "failed" a drug test! Good luck ever working in aviation again....

Unions are an insurance policy. Are they white knights come to save the day from all evil everywhere? Of course not... but they have their place in the airlines.

 

[ppragman]

That's not the case with pilot or F/A groups at the airlines. Look at F/As, they're easily replaced. I guarantee you that the company does NOT CARE if people leave in droves.

That was the case at ACE, but after 3 captains and about 4 FOs left in a 6 month period they changed the pay scale, and allowed FOs to upgrade quicker. That solved the problem temporarily, the issue with "pilot pushing" will probably raise its ugly head after awhile.

Speaking of pilot pushing, a union is not there to protect you from it. That's you're own job. If you don't think you should go, then don't go. A union isn't the way to deal with that. Dealing with pilot pushing should be a part of your intestinal fortitude, and something that goes down in the Flight Discipline category. It shouldn't be "I don't have to make this trip because I'm uncomfortable, and the union says I don't have to if I'm uncomfortable," it should be "I am not going to make this trip because I don't think these conditions are condusive to safe operations."

The only valuable attribute of the union is your protections. They really aren't that much, but you get to know that if you're fired for unlawful reasons, you will be protected to an extend. Frankly, the dues are a cheap insurance, however I think that the current system of seniority is a joke, and pay scales for starting FOs are insulting. Is there work that needs to be done? Yes. Are people doing it? Yes.

Finally, someone said your job is not to be a good pilot, but to be a robot, and mechanical standardization machine, automata, whatever. Frankly, I think this is delusional. Thinking for yourself in the cockpit is the most critical attribute of the pilot. That doesn't mean you will do things that aren't standardized, but the emphasis seems to be on the meat-puppet aspect of flying and not on what counts - Airmanship. A pilot unthinkingly follows the checklists and procedures in order to control the airplane. An airman follows the checklists and procedures in order to safely and efficiently control the airplane. Checklists and procedures are there for a reason, but think about the reasons behind your actions.

 

[mrivc211]

The airline that I work at fired 8 pilots last month for various reasons. Our sister airline that is unionized had zero firings for all of last years. Is it because our pilots are not as good, or more careless? No! It's because they have a union to protect mishaps and we don't. It's just a matter of when and not if it will happen to you.

 

[Velocipede]

Speaking of pilot pushing, a union is not there to protect you from it. That's you're own job. If you don't think you should go, then don't go. A union isn't the way to deal with that. Dealing with pilot pushing should be a part of your intestinal fortitude, and something that goes down in the Flight Discipline category.

Not entirely true. I've seen my Company attempt to discipline pilots up to an including dismissal for making a purely Capt. decision that was at odds with what the FODO and Dispatch wanted them to do. Only the intervention of the Union prevented the Company from firing them. Pilot pushing was the genesis of ALPA. "The more things change, the more they stay the same" is VERY true in aviation.

Frankly, the dues are a cheap insurance, however I think that the current system of seniority is a joke...

What would you replace it with? Merit promotion? That's what Virgin uses. And what is the metric applied to decide who gets the next Captain position? Carry maintenance writeups to the next maintenance base? On time departures? Fuel burn? On time arrivals? Who plays golf with the Chief Pilot? Again, that is exactly why ALPA was founded in the olden days...to fight for a fair promotion system. And seniority is the fairest available.

Thinking for yourself in the cockpit is the most critical attribute of the pilot....Airmanship..

And you'd be surprised how many office weasels try to strip that away from line Captains at every turn. They preach "build your team" when you're faced with an emergency. However, the agenda of the guys in Dispatch and the on the 2nd floor may be just a wee bit different from yours when its YOUR butt strapped to an airplane in trouble.

I could rattle you off a couple examples, but I'm sure EVERY 121 pilot could give you just about the same examples from their Companies of managers/supervisors who tried to push the Captain into making a bad decision.

And when that bad decision comes home to roost, its usuallly the Union that stands between that individual and the street.

 

[seagull]

but I'm sure EVERY 121 pilot could give you just about the same examples from their Companies of managers/supervisors who tried to push the Captain into making a bad decision.

And when that bad decision comes home to roost, its usuallly the Union that stands between that individual and the street.

Well, I'd argue you on this one, at least at my place. Some might differ, but they probably don't have the full story. There have been a few times, as a manager, that I made it clear that a person should fly when they were initially reticent due to some perceived legality issue, however, in every case, I was able to show them that they were not correct, that they were legal and safe. Never once did I have to issue a management directive, as I was able to explain to them why it was legal and safe, so it wasn't necessary.

On the other side, and on a very regular basis, I stopped flights from departing or pulled people off a trips, where THEY wanted to fly, but I did not feel it was safe. These decisions cost the company a lot of money, but they were the right decisions, and fully supported by those I reported to. I know that others make similar decisions every day.

This is not to say that unions are not necessary (see my previous post), and I do know that what you describe is the norm out there, unfortunately, but did have to state it for the record.

 

[falconvalley]

Can someone explain to me what bargaining power does a union like ALPA have? If they don't agree with an issue what can they do? NOTHING. It is not like they can have there workforce go on strike. A union's only bargaining tool is to strike. The aviation industry obviously doesn't have that so unions get walked all over. It is very obvious to see that is what happened with the whole GoJets fiasco. ALPA didn't have enough bargaining power so TSA walked away from the table and there was NOTHING I say again NOTHING that ALPA could do. Unions are a waste of money especially when all there doing is helping make that coveted 20k a year in this industry. If a company screws you like some of the examples above...hire an aviation attorney and take them to court.

A strike would be a last resort. It's not the only bargaining power. How efficiently pilots fly their trips is a bargaining tool. Picketing is a bargaining tool. Showing up for work is a bargaining tool. Bag tags and hats are bargaining tools. Give and take is a bargaining tool. Heck, a union itself is a bargaining tool.

 

[drhunterr]

Definitely an outsider looking in, but I agree in the past that lots of people needed the protection of a union. However, i think a lot of that need has since elapsed...however, that said - I think certain industry professionals have a need for union representation - airline flight crews among them.

the industry faces new pressures every day from fuel, upstarts with unsustainable low fares - basically they look to lower costs anywhere they can. However, when the professionals in the airplane have invested the same time and money for training as did doctors, lawyers, etc. ...there's a need to make sure they are well taken care of. IMHO.

 

[Nark]

Seagull:

Thank you for explaining to me what an airline union does, albeit after 37 posts.

 

[Alchemy]

Seagull:

Thank you for explaining to me what an airline union does, albeit after 37 posts.

So let me get this straight:

You wait until someone tells you what you want to hear and disregard the other 90% of the responses? Got it.

 

[Nark]

Yeah pretty much, because what you and the others wrote didn't answer my question. You just mentioned tangible benefits you have at your employers, many of which non-unionized employees also share. Ergo, not answering my question.

 

[MQAAord]

Uh, okay.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

As nice as it might seem, $200,000/ year is not what a pilot is worth.

You're right; $500,000 for a senior wide-body Captain would be a much more reasonable number.

What happens in the cockpit of a 121 that doesn't happen in Joe Blow's G-V that requires someone to lobby management and congress on your behalf?

The guy in the G-V has been benefiting from ALPA's progress for the past 77 years. TCAS, wx radar, EGPWS, and the list goes on and on. They just don't contribute anything to the cause. All of the benefit, none of the sacrifice.

Believe me persuading people on these threads is hard enough. Better off screaming it into a pillow like girlfriend does.

You shouldn't be trying to persuade anyone. As a newbie, you should be reading and learning, not "persuading."

If you want to compare 135 v 121 safety in depth well lets have at it.

135 freight: 1 vacuum system, no de-ice, no autopilot.
121: No vacuum because it's electronically based on 2-3 redundant systems. Auto pilot and anti-ice systems.

Apples and oranges my friend in that regard, however labor output certainly is comparable.

And who do you think worked to get the safety requirements in place to make 121 that safe? ALPA, my friend. ALPA was on the leading edge of the battle for every significant safety improvement since the '30s. It doesn't happen without hard work and money. That's what ALPA takes care of.

I also thought living in an industrialized world I would be protected by labor laws, not needing to pay a reoccurring fee for.

Who do you think worked to get those labor laws in place? Trade unions. Get rid of the trade unions and their influence in Washington, then special interests like the Chamber of Commerce will get those fancy labor laws repealed. The AFL-CIO has to fight every day to just hold on to what we have, let alone make improvements like the EFCA.

Can someone explain to me what bargaining power does a union like ALPA have? If they don't agree with an issue what can they do? NOTHING. It is not like they can have there workforce go on strike.

Uh, yeah, they can. Ever hear of EAL '89? CAL '83? UAL '85? NWA '98? The list goes on.

If a company screws you like some of the examples above...hire an aviation attorney and take them to court.

Outside of ALPA and a handful of independent unions, there about a half dozen attorneys in the entire country that specialize in pilot labor law. If you're one of the 100,000 air line pilots in the country, good luck getting one of them and not paying through the frickin' nose.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Yeah pretty much, because what you and the others wrote didn't answer my question. You just mentioned tangible benefits you have at your employers, many of which non-unionized employees also share. Ergo, not answering my question.

Non-unionized employees leech off of the progress of ALPA. You think Skywest and JetBlue would pay what they do if it weren't for ALPA? Of course not. If it weren't for ALPA, air line pilots would get paid minimum wage and have 5 days off a month. Non-union companies pay comparable wages and benefits because they want to keep the union off the property. The problem, of course, is that you don't get that attorney when you need one, like the Skywest pilot who was unlawfully terminated for an accusation of writing something derogatory about the CP on the bathroom wall. He had to fight it himself, at his own expense. One little incident like that can cost you more than an entire career's worth of dues.

 

[SFCC/UND]

You shouldn't be trying to persuade anyone. As a newbie, you should be reading and learning, not "persuading."

I ain't no newbie, I'm a senior guy dude.

 

[Sprint100]

Non-unionized employees leech off of the progress of ALPA. You think Skywest and JetBlue would pay what they do if it weren't for ALPA? Of course not. If it weren't for ALPA, air line pilots would get paid minimum wage and have 5 days off a month. Non-union companies pay comparable wages and benefits because they want to keep the union off the property. The problem, of course, is that you don't get that attorney when you need one, like the Skywest pilot who was unlawfully terminated for an accusation of writing something derogatory about the CP on the bathroom wall. He had to fight it himself, at his own expense. One little incident like that can cost you more than an entire career's worth of dues.

That was a lot of Kool-Aid, be careful you might take an eye out:laff:

 

[RWH1986]

I can certainly see the concept of Unions back in 1876, but not today.

As nice as it might seem, $200,000/ year is not what a pilot is worth. Nor is $20,000. Why do they fight harder for one than the other?

Unions may good for the employee of said company, but in the big picture they suck and they are proving that right now.

If there were no unions you would be making way less than the wages now. Every job in america would pay more than you would be making. The IAM saved me my job once without a union I would be on the street.

Non-unionized employees leech off of the progress of ALPA. You think Skywest and JetBlue would pay what they do if it weren't for ALPA? Of course not. If it weren't for ALPA, air line pilots would get paid minimum wage and have 5 days off a month. Non-union companies pay comparable wages and benefits because they want to keep the union off the property. The problem, of course, is that you don't get that attorney when you need one, like the Skywest pilot who was unlawfully terminated for an accusation of writing something derogatory about the CP on the bathroom wall. He had to fight it himself, at his own expense. One little incident like that can cost you more than an entire career's worth of dues.

EXACTLY

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I ain't no newbie, I'm a senior guy dude.

That's not what your profile says.

 

[aloft]

The union also forces the pilots to be very loyal, as their fate is tied to their company. This is good for management.

Very good for management--and debatable as to whether this outweighs every other union benefit. In most other industries, were management to come and say "we're going to cut your pay by 50%", most workers would've said "do that and I'm outta here". How many Delta pilots quit after their pay was cut? Few, if any, I'm guessing. Tying pilots' fates to a single company is the single most stupid idea in the history of stupid ideas.