Please explain unions to me.

Work at an airline with a union then work at an airline without a union. You'll know right away why you need a union. Here at Colgan we just voted in ALPA. Ask any of the Colgan pilots about the abuse they've suffered as an at will employee.

- Numerous base changes where the company only pays you .39 a mile and maybe for a U-haul.

- Missed trips for calling in sick.

- Being cajoled into working past a 16 hour duty day.

Most glaringly though is making 37,000 a year while carrying about 170 million dollars in liability per trip (based on each pax being estimated at 5 million by the insurance companies). Or even better compare our Q-400 rates to Horizon's then scratch your head.

Unions can't protect horrible pilots. If you screw up your PC enough at any company you'll be fired. My Dad is in the top 50 of the seniority list (out of about 7000) at his company and he's still a miserable sob for the 2 months leading up to his PC every year.
 
........

Why is it that an FO on a Challenger 604 makes 2-3 times as much as a RJ FO does when the they are flying the exact same profiles?

......

I would venture that this has absolutely nothing to do with unions. This one is easy. The airlines know that there are an excess of people that will take that regional FO job so they have no reason to raise the pay-rate.

As for the Challenger FO jobs, the companies will never hire at the times that regional outfits will. The pay is greater, the competition is greater. Corporate outfits want and are willing to pay for experience.

Take a look at a new regional FO and a new FO to the Corp.gig. I would bet that their experience levels are generally much different in terms of hours.
 
To the OP: Have you read "Flying the Line" Vols 1 & 2?

If not, go read them. Now. Then come back and question the value of unions at an airline. To understand the "value" of a union at an airline, you MUST learn the history of unions at airlines.


I'm not one of those "ALPA Cheerleader" types, but a good way to think of it is like buying insurance. With a union, you never have to face management alone.

Let's say your airline fires you because of the results of a drug test. The company that processes the drug test samples has said your sample is "not consistent with human urine". This is false, you gave a real sample, you have not done any drugs, you do NOT deserve to be fired over this. This is where the union comes in. Because of your union, it is discovered that the facility where the samples are processed does not maintain high enough QC standards that they botched up the test. Because of your union, you get your job back. With back pay.

No, I'm not making this example up. This really happened.
 
or a little closer to home for JC......


Ask Doug how valuable his union is/was when the folks over at academy xyz tried with all of their might to get him fired because of what is said on JC.

True story!

It's too early for me to search, but that is here on the forums somewhere in the depths.
 
Some people will say that having a union protects people who deserve to be fired.

Let me give you another real example: It used to be, at Eagle, that it was a HUGE no-no for an Eagle F/A to ride in an AA F/A jumpseat. It is not this way anymore, but it used to be a fire-able offense. One day, a girl commuting to work from RDU was given a F/A jumpseat assignment on a AA plane to get to work. The flight was full, the agent & CA said "oh it's okay, just take it, you won't get on this flight if you don't!". They were trying to help, but they didn't understand that it was in the rulebook that Eagle F/As were not allowed in AA F/A jumpseats. This girl knew she was doing something against the rules. She gets to ORD. Goes into her supervisor's office and starts blabbing about her commute and tells her supervisor she rode in the jumpseat. Duh! This girl did a stupid thing. This was said IN the manager's office, WITH witnesses.... The supervisor (a very nice lady who would not want to fire anybody unless absolutely necessary) had no choice but to write this up and start proceedings. She came crying to her union rep wanting the rep to "save her". There was absolutely nothing that union rep could do. How do I know this story so well? I was the union rep. She had done something knowingly against the rules, and told the supervisor herself! Union protection isn't going to save you from that!

So yes, people who are union protected who do something stupid like that, aren't going to be around long....
 
Someday when your not 16 anymore your job will hang in the balance. Your wife and kids will be in the front of your mind and all of a sudden you'll realize why people on jetcareers told you so many times that a union will help protect your job.
 
Performance based reviews are not existent in the airline biz? An FO constantly miscalculates something, misses radio calls, mis-dials freq's is a great way to measure performance.

That's a ridiculous way to measure performance.

In my domicile, I've flown with less than 10 of the 220 captains more than once. Most of these guys know I don't suck. Of the other 50 or so I've flown with, I'm sure I've had a bad day, planted landings, missed radio calls, forgotten stuff. I'm not unsafe, but we all have bad days. I've also flown with several awesome, safe, competent captains who's asses I've saved *big time* by catching things. I'm not going to judge them on those several instances.

The point is, there's no way to objectively evaluate a pilot well enough for upgrade/promotion purposes. The seniority system isn't perfect, but it clearly works well enough when combined with the other checks an airline has.

I work for a company that's very unusual among non-union airlines. Right now, we get almost all the stuff Alchemy mentioned. For the most part, management treats us waaay better than my former (union) airline's. The two big things we lack, though, are 1) the security of having ALPA lawyers and medical staff available and 2) a legally binding contract. Life is great for most of us now, but there's nothing strictly permitting a change in the company's heart if it's financial position changes. People aren't getting fired left and right for BS reasons, but it sure would be nice to have a lawyer on call 24/7.
 
Further, the purpose of being a line pilot isn't to be a great pilot, it's to be standard. There should be zero difference between FO 1 and FO 2, and CA 1 and CA 2. You should be able to, 5 seconds after meeting the guy, get in the plane, call for the receiving checklist and have things flow like clockwork.

To that end, you're paid to be a robot, not Chuck Yeager.
 
As a relatively new member to unions, I'll give you my take on why they're absolutely necessary in aviation. Mind you, I'm a FA, NOT a pilot, but many of the reasons apply to both. You're in a job where you're unsupervised, yet exposed to hundreds of people a day. I was NEVER a fan of unions, in fact I would have been considered anti-union in my younger days. I felt all they did was protect lazy workers. Being in this industry has opened my eyes to the fact that some companies (not all) are just not as interested in you as they are in their customers/profits.

When I joined my airline, our union had been voted in, but not yet in effect. I've seen many changes for the better, although there is still much work to be done. The quality of our hotels, the schedules, the work rules, etc. have all improved for the better. Of course, there's room for more improvement, but "little steps," I suppose. I, like Amber, am one of two union reps in our base. I love when I'm able to help someone who's having an issue. So far, the company has been decent to work with to find a solution.
The only downside of a union that I see is that some employees think it's a "get out of jail free" card that can be used whenever they break a company rule or policy. That, though, is just individual ignorance and can't be defended. I always encourage our FAs, especially new hires, to read the contract. It's written in language they can understand and if there are any gray areas, they can always ask a union rep.

I'm also looking forward to working with our pilots who've recently joined ALPA in making the company a better place to work. Our contract got them some improvements and I'm sure their contract will benefit us in the future! Here's to all of us working together!! :rawk: :nana2:

Just my .02......
 
Unions may good for the employee of said company, but in the big picture they suck and they are proving that right now.
 
Unions may good for the employee of said company, but in the big picture they suck and they are proving that right now.

?

Can you offer some examples?



Edit to add: For as much as I am not an ALPA cheerleader, and yes, I think ALPA has become a tad "political" lately, I do remind myself constantly that airline flying is as safe as it is today as a direct result of ALPA's safety efforts in decades past. That has saved people's lives....
 
?

Can you offer some examples?

The only example I care about is national and local financial issues. All I see are economies tumbling but unions with fat cat terms aren't stepping up and renegotiating to help out the states or the national economy. I'll go scream into a pillow now:laff:
 
If I had been in a union at AirNet, things might have turned out completely different for me there. My biggest issues with them were how they handled disciplining the pilots. I had to ride with 3 different checkairmen once because the pilot I was doing "IOE" with said I was landing nose gear first. His "proof" was that I was burning the nose gear light out. That particular plane had been written up numerous times in the previous couple months and the bulb had been replaced each time. AirNet also had a bulletin out telling pilots not to use the nose gear landing light on runways with centerline lights. He was not following the bulletin. He was so scared of being disciplined that he blamed me and trying to make it look like I needed more training. There were other numerous issues, but that's just one example. A union would have required a little more investigation for something like this. He said/he said would not suffice. That's the protection people are speaking of. It's not about bad pilots keeping their jobs.
 
True story.

There is a certain airline out there recently had a gear up incident. Not all the gear, just one, it wouldn't come down. The pilots ran thru the QRH 3 TIMES to try to get the gear to swing. No dice.

They landed, and within a week or two the airplane was flying the line again, they did so little damage. I don't think the cause has officially been released yet but the NTSB found after looking at it an improperly attached bolt, as the aircraft had just come out of mx and was on a repo flight. What did mx work on? The gear.

Yet the company tried to fire the Captain. There was absolutely no reason at all to call for disciplinary action. The union stepped in and saved their jobs.

Worth every 1.95%? You 'betcha!
 
The only example I care about is national and local financial issues. All I see are economies tumbling but unions with fat cat terms aren't stepping up and renegotiating to help out the states or the national economy. I'll go scream into a pillow now:laff:

So the 50% paycut the DL pilots took isn't "renegotiating".... how much more should they give?
 
The only example I care about is national and local financial issues. All I see are economies tumbling but unions with fat cat terms aren't stepping up and renegotiating to help out the states or the national economy. I'll go scream into a pillow now:laff:

Unions aren't inflexible. Just look at the paycuts ALPA and UAW members have taken over the past decade. Yet employees are tired of taking the paycuts while the CEO's take pay raises and bonuses. That is probably why you think unions aren't reneogotiating. They've renegotiated enough. Time for the CEO's and management to *manage*.
 
I have been around this business for a long time (watched with interest the debates on the Deregulation Act, first on cargo, then on pax airlines, for example...). I have been a union organizer, I have chaired committees, served on national committees, and worked in airline management.

Under the Railway Labor Act, having a contract for the pilots actually protects both sides in a number of ways. Pilots also have to abide by the contract (they sometimes forget that part). Those that argue against the RLA do not know the history or the full implications of it.

The other part is that, when an airline gets big enough, the management is actually easier with the union than without. While this might not apply to non-pilot work groups, for pilots, the issues become complex quickly. While the pilots are not management, per se, they do have to act as managers of their aircraft and crew, including, often the ground and support people. The lack of ability to directly supervise them creates problems if you do not have a fairly rigid operating framework. In the military, you get that, but in the civilian world, you do not automatically have that authority.

You need some framework that is more formal than is possible in the typical civilian company, as the stakes are a lot higher. The union creates checks and balances in the system. I certainly do not agree with all the positions either side takes. I have seen the management pushing for things that would increase safety, and the union arguing against them because it would adversely impact some of the members, so it's not all about safety (sorry, but that's the truth, many examples but not for this thread). However, the pilots need to have their collective interests and positions raised. Could you imagine the complication of having 5000 or more professionals all contacting management with their point of view, how that would be?

You do not have a supervisor for each small group, like other employee groups, and, if you did, you'd have to have several hundred pilot managers, all with the experience to understand the problems, who would report to how many senior managers, etc. It would be cumbersome, and expensive to manage that way. Much better to have a single spokesperson or focal point for the pilots.

What the union is also providing is a check, and sometimes it protects a bad management team from itself. Furloughing a pilot, for example is not like laying off someone in most positions due to the extremely long spool up time to get someone requalified, but a bad management team might take the short term view to the company's long term detriment. The union also forces the pilots to be very loyal, as their fate is tied to their company. This is good for management.

The union also can be instrumental in promoting professional standards, which are policed by the group itself, which gains the company higher quality, more professional employees. This is essential in a large company where there is no way to supervise the pilots in any direct way.

That said, there are some bad parts of the union. You tend to have volunteers that are mad at the company, which is not good, and there is a tendency for the union reps to paint a bleak picture to get more support, just as happens in our political system with certain organizations. Not sure how to fix that, but you need to be aware of it. Unfortunately, those that are fairly happy do not tend to want to spend their free time volunteering. I think it should be a mandatory part for everyone's career, a couple years on the union side, and a couple on management, would make people see things for what they are, maybe.
 
I have read a lot on the thread about improved working conditions etc...

I can say from past experience in non-union environments... yes, we would try to squeeze out as much from 'front line' employees as we possibly could that was best for the bottom line. HOWEVER, if something was implemented or if employees didn't like something, their biggest voice was voluntary attrition. If attrition ever got to high, we were all sitting around a conference table reviewing exit interviews to figure out why people were leaving and trust me, if there were multiple people leaving for the same thing, it got changed quickly! Attrition is EXPENSIVE.

We also have always done employee satisfaction surveys... if there were areas where the satisfaction rate was below 70% you better believe something was being done to increase it, again, to prevent attrition.

That said, I don't understand why you don't just leave a company if you don't like the environment / work rules... if enough people did that, they'd change some things because attrition really hits the pocket book. Also, when people start saying how "horrible" company XYZ is and no one wants to go there and the company has a really hard time recruiting new people, then they'll start improving things so they can get some good talent in the door. All without unions.
 
We also have always done employee satisfaction surveys... if there were areas where the satisfaction rate was below 70% you better believe something was being done to increase it, again, to prevent attrition.

That said, I don't understand why you don't just leave a company if you don't like the environment / work rules... if enough people did that, they'd change some things because attrition really hits the pocket book. Also, when people start saying how "horrible" company XYZ is and no one wants to go there and the company has a really hard time recruiting new people, then they'll start improving things so they can get some good talent in the door. All without unions.

That's not the case with pilot or F/A groups at the airlines. Look at F/As, they're easily replaced. I guarantee you that the company does NOT CARE if people leave in droves.

"Just leaving" isn't always the best option either. Pilots and F/As are married to their airlines, if a 10 year pilot has seen massive changes at his/her carrier, including drastic work rule changes & pay cuts since s/he was hired, that pilot has 10 years invested at that company, and if they go somewhere else they start over at the bottom. All the more reason why staying and trying to make things BETTER instead of bailing is often done....

Being an airline pilot or flight attendant carries some sort of mystique or glamour, and there will ALWAYS be people applying for the jobs, no matter WHAT is said about the company anywhere.

Does your previous experience come directly from airlines?

The OP talked specifically about unions at airlines. So that is where our opinions are coming from.
 
So the 50% paycut the DL pilots took isn't "renegotiating".... how much more should they give?

Renegotiating unfairly, improperly, whatever you want to call it isn't smart as you/we all know. That supposed renegotiation was just so some fat cats could keep their ridicuolous salaries. I don't call that renegotiating, that ain't nothing but blackmail. Honestly, that was jacked up and shouldn't have been "renegotiated" but the union helped in the blackmail.
 
Back
Top