Please explain unions to me.

Nark

Nark

Macho Superpilot
I'll be honest, I cannot fathom how a Union will benefit me.
A company is making money, great. A Company loses money needs to trim the fat, so fire (furlough) a few people to lean out. It's how the capitalist world turns.

When I was 16-18 I worked at a grocery store. I was part of a union that limited me to 20 hours a week. I saw hard workers be capped at 20 hours/week until they hit 5 year seniority and crappy workers the exact same. Promoting was based on date or hire, not work performance. Sound familiar?

Now lets talk about flying. Airlines/121 are pretty much unionized, corporate/135 not so much. Yet both seem to get people from A to B safely, (relatively). I could care less about 1 let alone 500 passengers I carry. As long as I get there, so will my passengers.

Why is it that an FO on a Challenger 604 makes 2-3 times as much as a RJ FO does when the they are flying the exact same profiles?

Answer: Collective Bargaining Agreements. IE: The FAA mandates the duty day, the airline say's "you should work within the FAA rules." The union lobby is getting paid handsomely, with little to no results on that issue, but I digress...

Once hired with a business with a union, membership is a obligatory. It's like a gang initiation, except the bruises and scrapes go away after a month with the Crips, and the dues keep on coming out of the paycheck every two weeks.

So please explain to me why I should pay $12/paycheck to a group that "defends my interest's" but fails to note what my interest's are?
 
The union will try to fight to get the money you deserve, holiday pay, vacation, benefits, and other things. I guess you can thank the industrial revolution and the NLRA for unions.
 
I can certainly see the concept of Unions back in 1876, but not today.

As nice as it might seem, $200,000/ year is not what a pilot is worth. Nor is $20,000. Why do they fight harder for one than the other?
 
dhc2tacksby said:
Promoting was based on date or hire, not work performance. Sound familiar?
Click to expand...
Please explain to me how you will promote airline pilots based on work performance while not compromising safety. There are some pilot jobs where this can be done, but airline flying is not one.

On-time performance? Pushes pilots to break regs and operate unsafely to make more money.
Flights completed? Pilots are pushed to fly broken airplanes and in weather they shouldn't.
Customer service? How the heck can you fairly and objectively judge that?
 
Let's start with this

Hi dhc2tacksby -

If you did not have a union, would you take some of your own money and free time and go to DC and lobby yourself?

You know, little things like the RLA that...sort of...restrict labor a bit.

In this example, lobbying successfully for the removal of the RLA would change your career for the better. But these things do not remove themselves.

This is one example of hundreds.
 
dhc2tacksby said:
So please explain to me why I should pay $12/paycheck to a group that "defends my interest's" but fails to note what my interest's are?
Click to expand...

By all means, don't apply to union airlines then. No one is forcing you to work at a union job. There are pleny of 91, 135, and maybe even a few 121 jobs out there with your name on them. If you dislike unions yet you applied at a union job, well no offense, but that's just dumb.

Why do I appreciate my union?

Full pay for deadheads
2 hr DPM (paid at least 2 hours per day at my payrate even if I only fly 15 mins per day)
3.75 hrs of pay per day for training
Training only on days off
Promotions based on seniority&ability, not on brown nosing (although my union is doing a lousy job of this currently)
Watchdog and advocates when the company tries to break the law (and they do)
15.5 hour duty day maximum (yes 30 mins matters)
Advocates for job retention in case of injury
Rules which scheduling must adhere too
12 day off per month
A voice (vote) in wether or not to accept modification to my pay, benefits, and work rules
3 star or better hotels

....plus a lot more that I'm forgetting. Yes It would be nice to get paid 2% more but I would not trade that for all the things listed above. Bottom, line if you don't like unions, don't work somewhere that has them (it's a free country). Or opt out of your alpa dues and pay your "shop fees". That way you can donate 2% of your check to your company instead of the union; hope you don't lose your medical though.
 
Roger & Alchemy:

The same argument applies to non unionized jobs such as part 135 and 91 ops, yet they have gotten from A to B year after year without the help of ALPA and others.

Performance based reviews are not existent in the airline biz? An FO constantly miscalculates something, misses radio calls, mis-dials freq's is a great way to measure performance.

I have flown with idiots. Not just one flight where they are having a bad day, but constantly.

I'm not currently at an airline, nor do I plan on it anytime soon. I just want to know how the airlines unions are helping their pilots when the same guys next door aren't benefiting from their actions.
 
dhc2tacksby said:
Roger:

The same argument applies to non unionized jobs such as part 135 and 91 ops, yet they have gotten from a to b year after year without the help of ALPA and others.

Performance based reviews are not existent in the airline biz? An FO constantly miscalculates something, misses radio calls, misdials freq's is a great way to measure performance.

I have flown with idiots. Not just one flight where they are having a bad day, but constantly.

How many time have you heard about "that captain or FO" Unless that person fails a checkride x amount times or bust's union rules they are going to sit fat dumb and happy for a while.
Click to expand...

How is that the union's fault? Your company puts together ther interview and application, not the union. Did they somehow drop 40 IQ points after they were hired? The company controls the newhire curriculum too. Sounds like your airline has a problem with standards in their training department. I can honestly say that every single pilot I've flown with in 4+ years at my airline is someone I would have no problems trusting my and my family's lives to.
 
Roger said:
Please explain to me how you will promote airline pilots based on work performance while not compromising safety. There are some pilot jobs where this can be done, but airline flying is not one.

On-time performance? Pushes pilots to break regs and operate unsafely to make more money.
Flights completed? Pilots are pushed to fly broken airplanes and in weather they shouldn't.
Customer service? How the heck can you fairly and objectively judge that?
Click to expand...

Airline pilots are promoted on performance. Upgrade trainng is that performance. It is far from a given that a pilot will pass. And sometimes if you don't pass, you get fired. I worked and studied dilligently to earn my upgrade. Not everyone made it through. Sure seniority made me "eligible" but seniority alone did not make me a captain anymore more than seniority alone made me a newhire FO.
 
At my job we are trying fighting for better work rules and pay. The average CFI at my flight school makes $14,000/year.

As an employee of a community college, being a union member affords me the following advantages:

-There are highly trained professionals whose job it is to represent my interests in bargaining with my employer. They are well versed in labor law.

-If I am fired or dismissed for unlawful reasons, there is an already paid for legal team that will fight for my job.

-I am better educated about my rights and responsibilities as an employee.

-The administration will have a harder time playing one employee group against another (which they are currently trying to do) since all communicate as union members.

Unions can be abused. Everyone engaged in union activities needs to consistently ask themselves if they are being reasonable, responsible, and professional. However, in a world where too many companies are managed by people who are unjust in how they treat their employees, unions are an indispensable tool for maintaining justice and worker's rights.

Sounds to me like you have yet to experience working for a company that is happy to give you as little as possible so management/shareholders can have just a little bit more. When you do, you will appreciate the value of unions.
 
dhc2tacksby said:
Performance based reviews are not existent in the airline biz? An FO constantly miscalculates something, misses radio calls, mis-dials freq's is a great way to measure performance.
Click to expand...

People miss freq's all the time it doesn't make them a bad FO or CA(there is a lot going on in a 121 cockpit). The FMS does almost all the calculates. Try again on the performance based reviews.
 
flyinguitar said:
As an employee of a community college, being a union member affords me the following advantages:

-There are highly trained professionals whose job it is to represent my interests in bargaining with my employer. They are well versed in labor law.

-If I am fired or dismissed for unlawful reasons, there is an already paid for legal team that will fight for my job.

-I am better educated about my rights and responsibilities as an employee.

-The administration will have a harder time playing one employee group against another (which they are currently trying to do) since all communicate as union members.

Sounds to me like you have yet to experience working for a company that is happy to give you as little as possible so management/shareholders can have just a little bit more. When you do, you will appreciate the value of unions.
Click to expand...


This is what I'm asking for. A union to you has given you insight to labor laws. Anyone else?



Gonzo:

If you're missing freq's "all the time" you are a bad pilot. Rarely to occasionally is a acceptable in my opinion, but "all the time" isn't. What happens in the cockpit of a 121 that doesn't happen in Joe Blow's G-V that requires someone to lobby management and congress on your behalf?



PS. I'm in the military, there is no other company in the world that under appreciates the work that I (we) do more than my superiors.
 
What about my list? Are none of those things of any use to you?

Do you really want to use the safety record of 91 and 135 operators vs. 121 as your justification that unions are useless? You might want to take a look at those statistics first.

The difference between Joe Blow's GIII and Airliner XYZ should be obvious....the number of people on board and the fact that the airline held out its services. The potential damage caused by abuse, both of safety and employees, is greater at an airline-type operation, therefore the need for a union is often stronger. A lot of unions work together with management to ensure that the day to day operations of the company are carried out equitably and safely.

But I've got nothing to gain by persuading you. It sounds lik you've already made up your mind and are just trolling/flamebaiting. If are in a union you can always opt out of your dues, or just quit and go work somewhere else. No one forced you to join the military either, unless you are a vietnam vet. Avoid unions if that's what you want, and have fun!
 
Believe me persuading people on these threads is hard enough. Better off screaming it into a pillow like girlfriend does.
 
How do you suppose they measure the number of missed radio calls, cameras in the cockpit?

After all it is their jet, why shouldn't they be able to pull the CVR anytime they want to check up on us.

For those reasons alone, and not even getting into pay, this is a big plus in my eyes for unions.
 
If you want to compare 135 v 121 safety in depth well lets have at it.

135 freight: 1 vacuum system, no de-ice, no autopilot.
121: No vacuum because it's electronically based on 2-3 redundant systems. Auto pilot and anti-ice systems.

Apples and oranges my friend in that regard, however labor output certainly is comparable.

The fact that you compare airline unions and to non-unionized shops is impressive. So the onus of getting from A to B safely is the responsibility of the union and not the flight crew? Score one for ALPA because I truly thought when the FAA signed off on my licenses they thought I was capable of making safe decisions.

I also thought living in an industrialized world I would be protected by labor laws, not needing to pay a reoccurring fee for.
 
Ever read "Flying the line"? If you have never read that book, you will probably should. I believe Seggy can send you a free copy. :)

I never work at union job till my current job. I used to have doubts about union. After I saw what company does, it changed my mind very quickly. :)
 
dhc2tacksby said:
If you want to compare 135 v 121 safety in depth well lets have at it.

135 freight: 1 vacuum system, no de-ice, no autopilot.
121: No vacuum because it's electronically based on 2-3 redundant systems. Auto pilot and anti-ice systems.

Apples and oranges my friend in that regard, however labor output certainly is comparable.

The fact that you compare airline unions and to non-unionized shops is impressive. So the onus of getting from A to B safely is the responsibility of the union and not the flight crew? Score one for ALPA because I truly thought when the FAA signed off on my licenses they thought I was capable of making safe decisions.
Click to expand...

Pilot pushing is real and ALPA is there to remind company's that you are the best one to make safety decisions.

dhc2tacksby said:
I also thought living in an industrialized world I would be protected by labor laws, not needing to pay a reoccurring fee for.
Click to expand...

Not so cut and dry in the 121 world. (A lot of gray area in the RLA and FAR's)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top