Plans Change

OnTheFly7

OnTheFly7

Well-Known Member
I have been absent from this site for about two months, I think, and I was supposed to start the Private Ground at the end of August. Well, with toying around with the idea of relocating and such, it just did not happen. There is still a possibility that I may be moving to the west Denver area in the next few months (If someone has any good or bad info. about the area please let me know) but after really looking at things, I kind of like the midwest, especially in fall!:rawk:

I was usually content with my current profession and looking forward to the flexibility and the money. Well.................that has all changed. My views on how large corporations treat their people (which will remain inside) has been confirmed.

I was hesitant to enter aviation due to the unknowns and the upfront load. However, after thinking long and hard, it is where I need to return. Not to mention how good it can be once you get to that point where you are happy with what you are flying, your QOL and your pay!

I understand it is not all rosey, as nothing is, however it is much better than the current position I am in with the current state of the industry of said position. So long story short, Private Ground in the spring and tearing through the skies at some point within the next year (save yourselves now:D).

It will be a long process, but I intend to enjoy it fully and based on my past experiences in other industries, it will be easy to enjoy. Sorry for the rant and thoughtless post, just need to let it out!
 
PGA07 said:
I have been absent from this site for about two months, I think, and I was supposed to start the Private Ground at the end of August. Well, with toying around with the idea of relocating and such, it just did not happen. There is still a possibility that I may be moving to the west Denver area in the next few months (If someone has any good or bad info. about the area please let me know) but after really looking at things, I kind of like the midwest, especially in fall!:rawk:

I was usually content with my current profession and looking forward to the flexibility and the money. Well.................that has all changed. My views on how large corporations treat their people (which will remain inside) has been confirmed.

I was hesitant to enter aviation due to the unknowns and the upfront load. However, after thinking long and hard, it is where I need to return. Not to mention how good it can be once you get to that point where you are happy with what you are flying, your QOL and your pay!

I understand it is not all rosey, as nothing is, however it is much better than the current position I am in with the current state of the industry of said position. So long story short, Private Ground in the spring and tearing through the skies at some point within the next year (save yourselves now:D).

It will be a long process, but I intend to enjoy it fully and based on my past experiences in other industries, it will be easy to enjoy. Sorry for the rant and thoughtless post, just need to let it out!
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Yeah Im in the same boat. Grinding monday to friday, looking skyward. However I havent made that STEP of going to ground school. Im still trying get more info on piloting as a profession, and gathering the funds necessary to complete the task. Are you self funding yourself right through PPL-CPL-INSTRU-NIGHT-FI? Have you thought about doing the AB IN training at Delta Acad or something? Air Force. Ive considered all of them and due to $$$$ looks at though I'll be doing it FBO style. Anyways good luck with your move and ground school.

-MJR :yar:
 
MJR said:
Yeah Im in the same boat. Grinding monday to friday, looking skyward. However I havent made that STEP of going to ground school. Im still trying get more info on piloting as a profession, and gathering the funds necessary to complete the task. Are you self funding yourself right through PPL-CPL-INSTRU-NIGHT-FI? Have you thought about doing the AB IN training at Delta Acad or something? Air Force. Ive considered all of them and due to $$$$ looks at though I'll be doing it FBO style. Anyways good luck with your move and ground school.

-MJR :yar:
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I noticed that you are new to this site, welcome! You will learn more about aviation as a whole, here than you will anywhere else. Pay attention!

As for how to go about your training....FBO...FBO...FBO! I understand that each individual has their own purpose for pursuing this career path and each wants to get there their own way. The soon you realize that your certificates are the same no matter where you get them you will soon realize that you will save a S(*T Load of Cash by going the FBO route.

Truth be told, if someone had the time they can complete all of the ratings at an FBO just as quickly as they can at an academy, and for a whole lot less money. You will thank yourself for this down the road.

As to how to pay for your training, most here will agree that it is better to wait a year or two, save and pay as you go. Loans are big, big trouble in this industry. Imagine trying to pay $500/month (an approximation) for a flight training loan and paying your living expenses. Not easy and not always possible.

Believe it or not, by waiting a year or two or three and having money put away for those lean first few years and paying as you go, you will actually be ahead in the long run.

Good luck with what ever you decide. Stick close to the JC boards and you will benefit greatly.
 
PGA07 said:
I noticed that you are new to this site, welcome! You will learn more about aviation as a whole, here than you will anywhere else. Pay attention!

As for how to go about your training....FBO...FBO...FBO! I understand that each individual has their own purpose for pursuing this career path and each wants to get there their own way. The soon you realize that your certificates are the same no matter where you get them you will soon realize that you will save a S(*T Load of Cash by going the FBO route.

Truth be told, if someone had the time they can complete all of the ratings at an FBO just as quickly as they can at an academy, and for a whole lot less money. You will thank yourself for this down the road.

As to how to pay for your training, most here will agree that it is better to wait a year or two, save and pay as you go. Loans are big, big trouble in this industry. Imagine trying to pay $500/month (an approximation) for a flight training loan and paying your living expenses. Not easy and not always possible.

Believe it or not, by waiting a year or two or three and having money put away for those lean first few years and paying as you go, you will actually be ahead in the long run.

Good luck with what ever you decide. Stick close to the JC boards and you will benefit greatly.
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I have been following the age old motto, listen, listen and then ask good questions. I have learnt so much as a result of this site not only from the expertise but also the professionalism.

FBO training is great, cheap and fun. The local airport (ZYOW) fly DA-20 Katanas, very nice feel to it, less truck like then the C150.

If FBO is so good why do places like delta acad etc. exist? In other words what are the pros of the acad programs? Due to the lack of PIC time in some cases, how do these FO get to the let seat with hardly and PIC time. It seems they become career FO’s.

FBO forces you to get a job with your newly acquired CPL flying and accumulate valuable PIC time.

I 100% agree that pay as go option is a must. Loans are bad enough with a job. I’m 24 and currently working for a Business Intelligence company in Ottawa, Canada. I have been saving, should I be saving until my 42,000$ Sum of training? The dilemma lies in getting to cockpit ASAP while minimizing costs. Yes cliché I know. However, seniority numbers are a very important aspect of your overall (long term) QOL. Plus this pilot hiring up turn will not last forever, some say 2015. So it’s become a balancing act of get there now die of debt, or take your time and get into as cash allows you to but risk not being part of the hiring phase. I just know the 9-5 route is not for me, I dont like anything that's at all shaped like a cube now. :panic:


In the mean time, Ill keep my eyes on this site. Keep me up to date with your training.


-MJR
 
The old story of the the two bulls standing on the hill and seeing a cow standing in a field. The young bull only sees the one cow and says to the older bull, "why don't we run down there and #@$% that cow"???????

The older and wiser bull sees a larger group of cows standing further down the pasture says to the younger one, "no son, lets walk down and #$%^ them all".......

Yeah, I know its a bit crude... but gets the point across.... Find the abo####e best education you can find for the best price.... Don't listen to any guarantees, other than, "you will learn how to fly and become a knowledgable and quality pilot whom knows how to actually fly and airplane"......

Go the FBO route...... Don't get short sighted on airline only as way of life.... you will miss out on a lot.....

Start flying if you can one rating (license) at a time, and take your time to learn and obsorb.... See the whole picture... and make an informed choice...

Good luck.....
 
MJR said:
I have been following the age old motto, listen, listen and then ask good questions. I have learnt so much as a result of this site not only from the expertise but also the professionalism.

FBO training is great, cheap and fun. The local airport (ZYOW) fly DA-20 Katanas, very nice feel to it, less truck like then the C150.

If FBO is so good why do places like delta acad etc. exist? In other words what are the pros of the acad programs? Due to the lack of PIC time in some cases, how do these FO get to the let seat with hardly and PIC time. It seems they become career FO’s.

FBO forces you to get a job with your newly acquired CPL flying and accumulate valuable PIC time.

I 100% agree that pay as go option is a must. Loans are bad enough with a job. I’m 24 and currently working for a Business Intelligence company in Ottawa, Canada. I have been saving, should I be saving until my 42,000$ Sum of training? The dilemma lies in getting to cockpit ASAP while minimizing costs. Yes cliché I know. However, seniority numbers are a very important aspect of your overall (long term) QOL. Plus this pilot hiring up turn will not last forever, some say 2015. So it’s become a balancing act of get there now die of debt, or take your time and get into as cash allows you to but risk not being part of the hiring phase. I just know the 9-5 route is not for me, I dont like anything that's at all shaped like a cube now. :panic:


In the mean time, Ill keep my eyes on this site. Keep me up to date with your training.


-MJR
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Places like the academies exist to make themselves a ton of money on new but short sighted individuals who only want to fly and they do not care how they get there. Look closely and you will see that they only offer an interview, the rest is in your hands. They take advantage of Shinny Jet Syndrome (SJS).

If you look around you will see that most of these places are looked down upon by fellow pilots. This is because they know what these places are selling, a guarantee in a field where there are no guarantees!

Your statement about most people coming from these academies being life long FO's may not be to far from the truth. Now there is a difference between individuals who wish to remain an FO and bypass the Capt. upgrade due to scheduling, pay and QOL and the FO who can not upgrade because they went through one of these programs and was hired with such low time that they can not achieve an ATP. If I am correct the ATP requires 2500TT. So your turbine time and your multi time don't mean squat because you are short of the federal mins. to upgrade to Capt. and ATP status.

With regards to worrying about a seniority number, while it is one of the most important things in the commercial side, it can be over rated. Again this brings us to why places such as the academies exist. They advertise that the hiring phase is now and you need to be here now to get that job tommorow. The fact is, even in slow hiring years, there are jobs available. My favorite add was from Pan Am Academy talking about the Tarver Report and how much you stand to lose in income if you wait to start this career. What they neglect to say is how far behind you will be financially if you take out a loan and go thru their program.

Again, each route into this career exists for the different ways individuals wish to enter the field. However, the sooner that the mass population realizes that by taking these offers (academies, extremely low time hires, guarantees) they are short changing themselves and the industry the soon the industry will start to turn around in terms of pay and QOL.

All we can do is try to pass on the reason JC was formed............

To Educate Everyone Interested In This Career About All Aspects Of The Field, Both Good and Bad.

juskl said it right and took up a lot less space than I just did!:D
 
PGA07 said:
Places like the academies exist to make themselves a ton of money on new but short sighted individuals who only want to fly and they do not care how they get there. Look closely and you will see that they only offer an interview, the rest is in your hands. They take advantage of Shinny Jet Syndrome (SJS).

If you look around you will see that most of these places are looked down upon by fellow pilots. This is because they know what these places are selling, a guarantee in a field where there are no guarantees!

Your statement about most people coming from these academies being life long FO's may not be to far from the truth. Now there is a difference between individuals who wish to remain an FO and bypass the Capt. upgrade due to scheduling, pay and QOL and the FO who can not upgrade because they went through one of these programs and was hired with such low time that they can not achieve an ATP. If I am correct the ATP requires 2500TT. So your turbine time and your multi time don't mean squat because you are short of the federal mins. to upgrade to Capt. and ATP status.

With regards to worrying about a seniority number, while it is one of the most important things in the commercial side, it can be over rated. Again this brings us to why places such as the academies exist. They advertise that the hiring phase is now and you need to be here now to get that job tommorow. The fact is, even in slow hiring years, there are jobs available. My favorite add was from Pan Am Academy talking about the Tarver Report and how much you stand to lose in income if you wait to start this career. What they neglect to say is how far behind you will be financially if you take out a loan and go thru their program.

Again, each route into this career exists for the different ways individuals wish to enter the field. However, the sooner that the mass population realizes that by taking these offers (academies, extremely low time hires, guarantees) they are short changing themselves and the industry the soon the industry will start to turn around in terms of pay and QOL.

All we can do is try to pass on the reason JC was formed............

To Educate Everyone Interested In This Career About All Aspects Of The Field, Both Good and Bad.

juskl said it right and took up a lot less space than I just did!:D
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Just want to clarify something.

Although I am not a huge fan of some of the big academies, they do produce some good pilots. Remember everybody has to take the checkrides and pass to get the tickets. Also the ATP requires 1500 hours not 2500. While there are problems at SOME carriers with people not having the total time to upgrade it is not as common as you might think.

Also the academy route is not the ONLY way to get hired with low time. There are several jobs out there that require only 500TT like banner towing, skydive pilot, traffic watch, and yes some regionals. Of course there is also the CFI route. I did a little CFI work and also have flown Air Tours and both were great for expanding my knowledge and skills. Both are legitimate ways to gain knowledge and experience.

Main thing is that you need to do what is right for you. There are many paths that lead to the same place. There are good FBO's and Bad ones also. There are good academies and bad ones also.

The main thing you should concern yourself with is the quality of the instruction. Fancy planes and facilities don't mean squat in your logbook, and they sure will not help your skill level.

That's just my opinion anyways. The best suggestion is to find the guys on here that have the Job you want and seek their advice. You will not always like what they have to say, but believe me they know a hell of a lot better than you or I do.
 
desertdog71 said:
Just want to clarify something.

Although I am not a huge fan of some of the big academies, they do produce some good pilots. Remember everybody has to take the checkrides and pass to get the tickets. Also the ATP requires 1500 hours not 2500. While there are problems at SOME carriers with people not having the total time to upgrade it is not as common as you might think.

Also the academy route is not the ONLY way to get hired with low time. There are several jobs out there that require only 500TT like banner towing, skydive pilot, traffic watch, and yes some regionals. Of course there is also the CFI route. I did a little CFI work and also have flown Air Tours and both were great for expanding my knowledge and skills. Both are legitimate ways to gain knowledge and experience.

Main thing is that you need to do what is right for you. There are many paths that lead to the same place. There are good FBO's and Bad ones also. There are good academies and bad ones also.

The main thing you should concern yourself with is the quality of the instruction. Fancy planes and facilities don't mean squat in your logbook, and they sure will not help your skill level.

That's just my opinion anyways. The best suggestion is to find the guys on here that have the Job you want and seek their advice. You will not always like what they have to say, but believe me they know a hell of a lot better than you or I do.
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:yeahthat:

Well said!

Thanks for clarifying the ATP mins.
 
Heya PGA! Welcome back and glad you got going again!

You and I have realized our similar situations in the past. I was dead set on the academy route for a while. After paying off all my debt to afford it, I just could not bring myself to go into debt again. That being said, I feel the same way Van does; there is nothing wrong with academies, and even a loan for them if that is what you want to do. However, I think it is all too easy to take out a loan and not realize the repercussions that will come down the road. If I had the means to pay cash, I would have gone to ATP without a doubt.

However, I am still enjoying the ride and getting, what I feel to be, a great education here at my local FBO-Debt free. I also like that I can spend my time building for the commercial flying wherever I want whenever I want.

The cost? Anywhere from 8-12 months of extra time spent at a job I hate with a passion, the fact I am swamped with work and flight training(Sometimes negating the fun though I try not to let it), flying old 172’s with unmentionable squawks at times, and watching others make it to a shiny jet in the same amount of time since I have started.

There are pros and cons to both sides, I am just mentioning a few. After hearing so many say “NO LOAN!”,I realized how much of a quantifier not going deep into debt for the training is.
 
LoadMasterC141 said:
Heya PGA! Welcome back and glad you got going again!

You and I have realized our similar situations in the past. I was dead set on the academy route for a while. After paying off all my debt to afford it, I just could not bring myself to go into debt again. That being said, I feel the same way Van does; there is nothing wrong with academies, and even a loan for them if that is what you want to do. However, I think it is all too easy to take out a loan and not realize the repercussions that will come down the road. If I had the means to pay cash, I would have gone to ATP without a doubt.

However, I am still enjoying the ride and getting, what I feel to be, a great education here at my local FBO-Debt free. I also like that I can spend my time building for the commercial flying wherever I want whenever I want.

The cost? Anywhere from 8-12 months of extra time spent at a job I hate with a passion, the fact I am swamped with work and flight training(Sometimes negating the fun though I try not to let it), flying old 172’s with unmentionable squawks at times, and watching others make it to a shiny jet in the same amount of time since I have started.

There are pros and cons to both sides, I am just mentioning a few. After hearing so many say “NO LOAN!”,I realized how much of a quantifier not going deep into debt for the training is.
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Thanks for the welcome back!

I learned while in college (ACTUALLY AFTER COLLEGE, WHEN I HAD TO START PAYING) how bad big debt was. In fact, I am still trying to get out from under some of it. You know, had to pay for the ladies at the bar, had to purchase the sooped up 4 wheel drive truck to impress the ladies, etc.

Long story short, I did impress one of the ladies enough to stay with my stupid @ss for four years (as of last Friday). After seeing the pain we both went through while trying to survive and pay things off I vowed to never put her in that position again.

A little longer for the training at a quality FBO is the way to go for me. It will be a B*&#H trying to work, fly and have a little social time doing some of my hobbies. In the end, I figure it will be well worth it!

Agreed, when you start to hear that many people say "don't go the loan route" it starts to sink in! A dozen different ways to get to the same spot, for a dozen different people. In the end, no matter how we do it, we are all just chasing a dream!
 
I got the dream in my hands brother!

I guess when you mention it, I also never want to be where I once was:
Fresh out of the Air Force, 35k in debt, delusional grandeur going to an expensive college, and not thinking how I was going to pay for all of it.
I did pay it all off eventually, and learned the hard way...you just don't know how much debt suck, ties your hands, and limits you until you experience it firsthand (if you are numnut like me and learns everything the hard way)

As far as social life and hobbies....I gave all mine up. 12 Handicap golfer -Played twice this year. Avid Fisherman-Uhh No boat. Snowboard and Skier all my life...went once this year. Of course that isn't hard seeing as I live in Texas now haha.
 
Save money and get a more personal approach from your instructor at a local FBO. I learned everything from PVT thru MEI at an FBO that was run by a retired military pilot and staff of all seasoned instructors that were all over 50 years old. The experience they passed on to me was incredible and could not be matched by a pilot factory school, period. They believed in quality not quantity. Two of them are master pilots. I have met several pilots from the bigger schools and am less than impressed with their skill and knowledge. Plus, the bigger pilot factories have examiners on staff, I am sure they wont fail you unless you crash the plane. It's to bad the FAA doesn't do all the praticals because there would be a lot less incompetent pilots with certificates, and thats the truth. Just last weekend, we had a crash here at Mansfield Municipal, 2 fatalities and 2 critical. Was a very hot day, high humidity, and the c172 was loaded, runway is short, see where this is going. Can you say density altitude? Did the pilot ever learn how to use performance charts? I feel like I got top notch instruction at very reasonable rates. And we did some serious weather flying in new england in which many schools in other parts of the country never see IMC more than a few days per year. Anyone from new england will tell you the weather is half the battle here, learn instruments or dont bother.
Sorry to rant and rave, but please give consideration to some of the smaller FBO's that do care about the quality of your instruction and want to see you succeed and will also save you some money in the long run! Years ago I called several of the pilot factories and sounded like they just wanted me to send a deposit right there and then to lock in my spot. Yea, right, how about answering my question's first then I'll send you $60,000.00 for a gauranteed interview which I have been granted many of recent weeks on my own! If you want to be an airline pilot in 6 months, go for it, but I think the pilot factory candidates are a higher liability in the cockpit than a low timer like me that received top notch training from highly experienced instructors that aren't daydreaming about shinny jets. Just my 2 cents.
 
Great advice Sham thanks for sharing.

I have flown with 5 different FBO's since I started; 2 back in High School in upstate NY, 1 in the AF in Oklahoma, and 2 here in TX recently.

2 out of those 5 were worth a damn. Therein lies the problem from my perspective. If you get to an FBO like you describe, sure nothing is better. If you get to a crappy one, and that is all that is in your area, well the academy is going to be a better education IN MY OPINION. Why? Because the structure and rigidity of the training process is intact. At alot of FBO's I have seen or been too, it is cross your fingers and hope you get the old retired guy who is truly doing it to help you out. Otherwise, it is the same timebuilder as an academy, with less structure to force them to teach at least the right things. All just my opinion of course. And for the record, I have not been to an academy, so I am using secondhand info to arrive at my opinion at that.

Thankfully, I have found a wonderful instructor who puts alot of time and effort into my training.
 
LoadMasterC141 said:
Great advice Sham thanks for sharing.

I have flown with 5 different FBO's since I started; 2 back in High School in upstate NY, 1 in the AF in Oklahoma, and 2 here in TX recently.

2 out of those 5 were worth a damn. Therein lies the problem from my perspective. If you get to an FBO like you describe, sure nothing is better. If you get to a crappy one, and that is all that is in your area, well the academy is going to be a better education IN MY OPINION. Why? Because the structure and rigidity of the training process is intact. At alot of FBO's I have seen or been too, it is cross your fingers and hope you get the old retired guy who is truly doing it to help you out. Otherwise, it is the same timebuilder as an academy, with less structure to force them to teach at least the right things. All just my opinion of course. And for the record, I have not been to an academy, so I am using secondhand info to arrive at my opinion at that.

Thankfully, I have found a wonderful instructor who puts alot of time and effort into my training.
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Thats very true, I agree, if your stuck with a not so good FBO then the academy might be the only option. I was probably very lucky to have been able to learn from these instructors. Glad to hear you have a good instructor. As an instructor myself, I believe in giving your student the keys to your brain, and letting them indulge on all that you know and then some. And also taking an interest in them as a person with issues outside the flight school.
 
Shamrok said:
LOL, Don't worry, the Pats are videotaping Da Bears right now! I am ashamed of the Pats today......:banghead:
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LOL............that is hilarious! :rotfl:

It will be interesting to see what the league does, if anything!

On the positive note, it looks as if the Bill's player may make a full recovery and walk out of the hospital. Lets hope so!

Carry on!
 
"I have met several pilots from the bigger schools and am less than impressed with their skill and knowledge."

What do you expect when you went from PPL to CFIMEI in 90 days and were taught by a guy who was a PPL 4 months ago? It can be done but it doesn't promote a very high standard, I think. Some guys will turn out better than others, some guys can "handle it", but I think it lowers the bar unacceptably for the average guy.

I'm not against accelerated training and doing a rating or two fast. It's just when you do them all at once and hop right into being an active CFI, without any "outside the academy real life experience", that the situation becomes less than ideal.

Flight training is a combination of you, your CFI, and an airplane. Look for quality in those things, and you'll be fine no matter where you go.

If you ask me, the BEST training situation is a large flying club, working with a retired military/airline pilot CFI doing it for fun. You don't find those just anywhere, but they might be worth seeking out.

Lastly, all of the above is based on a person who does well outside a structured enviornment. Some people excel best in the most highly structured of training. Told where to go, when. Told what to study, when. And presented with a high academic training experience. I think all flight training is somewhat structured, it's just set up that way. But if you need classroom type ground schools, need to wear a uniform, and want to be standardized to the t, then some of the academies might be a better choice. It's gonna cost you, though.

And, yes, airline flying is highly standardized, blah, blah. But you can learn to be a pilot without all that and conform to it quite easily later on. It's not the big thing the academy websites want you to believe.
 
Been lurking on here for a few months, but this is my first post. I'm in a similar situation to a lot of folks here I guess. Been working as cube money for 7 years since graduating college and finally realizing that this isn't the life for me. Not totally sure yet if becoming a pilot is going to be the answer, but currently working on my PPL as a step towards figuring it out.

Anyway, my reason for finally registering and posting is that I live in Denver and wanted to say I love it! Moved here 2 years ago and no regrets. Some people have told me that if you learn to fly here, you can easily fly anywhere, with the wind coming off the mountains and the altitude. But since I haven't even soloed yet, I'm hardly in a position to say much about that. But Denver in general I think is just such a great place. Though I'm biased because I just love the mountains - skiing, mt biking, hiking, etc. And the sunshine. But if you want any more info on Denver, feel free to ask me...
 
DE727UPS said:
"If you ask me, the BEST training situation is a large flying club, working with a retired military/airline pilot CFI doing it for fun. You don't find those just anywhere, but they might be worth seeking out."

Thats essentially how I did my training except it was an actual FBO and not a flying club. One of the local examiner's here just retired from Continental and always has great advice for all the pilots. The experience that they all had combined was incredible. To just sit and talk aviation on a Saturady morning at the hangars when the weather was to bad for training was just an honor to be a part of. Not to sound to redundant, but if you can find a club or FBO like the one I mentioned above your training and character will benefit greatly (and wallet). I know they are few and far between, but they are out there. You almost feel as if your training with Yoda and the Jedi counsel!
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