Plane sale/Delivery question, need help please!

38bat

38bat

New Member
Well, I sold my plane on ebay. The buyer paid a 1k deposit via paypal as agreed. He has low(not negative) feedback. I asked for the balance via bank wire. He is a student pilot and was going to fly out here with his partner, his instructor and a rental 172. He was planning on flying the plane and wiring the money or bringing a cashiers check(I told him no checks, wire only). Then he was planning on having his instructor sign him off for solo and he would fly the plane back with his instructor following in the 172. Oh, did I mention that he is over 600NM from me? Needless to say this plan did not work out, so I have agreed to up the price a bit and I will deliver it to him. He wants to pay when I get there which makes me nervous. I have nothing to hide with the plane and he got it for a great price but what if he doesn't like the paint or something? I want to be reasonable, how would you handle this? I thought about asking for another $1500 deposit(bringing the total deposit to 10% of the purchase price. I also thought of making him pay for the whole thing before I leave. Is there something that would be "standard"? I don't want to blow the deal and I want to be fair. Help please!!!
 
I would calculate the cost of the round-trip to deliver the plane to him and charge him that upfront. Not a deposit. You are right to fear the Cashier's check.
PM
 
I shouldn't have mentioned the cashiers check because wire is all I will accept. I was thinking it was reasonable to ask for more than actual cost(as a non refundable deposit) as if he doesn't buy it I will be flying 1200 NM roundtrip and forced to overnight somewhere I don't want to be. Also, he paid wholesale if that makes a difference.
 
Yeah if you are delivering it he needs to pay you upfront roundtrip, overnight, and I would add a little for your time; all non refundable.
 
I've sold two airplanes. For your situation, 50% wire before the trip starts, 50% while the two of you sit at the FBO and his person does a pre-buy. Having him pay for delivery is questionable as in how do you charge? Unless you stated up front that you were going to charge for said delivery then you're kind of stuck eating that cost. Of course, this is just my personal opinion.
 
Fair is upfront reimbursement for the unforseen delivery including your trip back (by same plane or other means) non refundable. No cashiers checks, no cash, period. Funds released per wire @ buyers expense, airplane released. Title search & prebuy at buyers expense und under the premise that in case of refusal airplane is brought back to original status. Do not get stranded somewhere 600 miles from your A&P with an airplane that is apart!!!
Means: if the buyer decides to walk after the A&P has discovered anything unacceptable to him/herself the airplane is put back together at the buyers expense.

Otherwise, good luck, any questions, PM.
 
Thanks guys. I am not really worked up about it, I just want it to be fair to both of us. Please note that this was an ebay sale and I do think that is relevant as it spells out performance.

As for ebay auction terms I asked for a 1k deposit at close of auction and balance by bank wire within 5 days(I even offered to throw in my anywheremap gps if he paid within auction terms). I offered test flights, inspections, whatever you need prior to bidding. I had 24 plus pictures, scanned him 337's and logbooks etc.. so I represented fairly. I also have 1207 positive feedback as a powerseller in the last 12 months and have sold boats, cars, real estate etc.. He has 4 positive feedbacks, none within the last 12 months. While that doesn't necessarily mean anything.... I am also a little concerned that he has not even solo'd so his expectations may or not be in line. I do not mind at all delivering but I would not choose to go to Wichita given a choice.

What say you? JOE
 
Paid in full up front for the a/c and the trip.

The 50/50 deal could leave you high and dry and at the mercy of his A&P. It is on him to arrange the pre-buy, and it is customary is that you pay for and airworthiness items.

If he wants everything on a silver patter, tell him to contact VanBortel. Escrow (paid by the buyer, or you split it) protects everybody, but they cannot release the funds w/o authorization.
 
Remember he already bought the airplane on ebay. He bought it sight unseen, and paid a sight unseen price. The delivery and sale are two separate deals. If he wanted to arrange something, he could have done it before bidding. Stick to the original deal, full wire transfer before delivery. After that, consider the ferry trip something else and deal with it how you want.
 
When I sold my airplane, I flew it 1500 miles with the promise they would pay on arrival. Only requirement was he pay for my flight back home if something was not as described. I didn't really have too many concerns. I also brought it to Canada. They wired money when I got there.

If you were such a demanding seller, then I probably would lose faith and trust in you and search else ware. The comments from other people seem to be from those that have never bought or sold an airplane.
 
There are a lot of ambguities in this transaction, at least from what we know.

The buyer has made a deposit, but not paid the balance yet (as I understand it). In my view, this means that the transaction is not completed and you still own the airplane. Therefore, if I were the buyer, I would not release the balance of the money to you until I took ownership and possesion of the airplane. This is for the simple reason that if you crash on the delivery flight, it is you and your insurance company that will be liable for the crash. I would hesitate to send you $40k, you crash on the way, and then you say "gee - you already bought the airplane, its on you". I know you would never do this, but it is a possibility. If that scenario were to happen, who would actually own the aircraft and whose insurance coverage would pay? Personally, I would never send the money to you unless I had legal ownership of the airplane and insurance coverage for the minute that the I took ownership. If you are delivering the airplane to the buyer and crash into a school and kill 490 children, who is responsible for the liability? Is it you as the pilot - probably. Is it you as the airplane owner - probably. Is it him as the "owner" (since he already sent the money - maybe.

I bring these things up simply to throw some weird "what if" ideas out there. Ambiguous items in the sale and delivery of the aircraft are not your friend. Clear up these issues as well as who is legally the owner and whose insurance coverage is in force prior to delivering your airplane. My preference would be for the buyer to come and pick up the airplane, wire the money, and the moment the money is wired and the bill of sale completed the airplane is his and he would have to figure out how to get it home.
 
Oh c'mon! This much talk about ferrying an airplane and no one yet says they'll do it for free?

38bat, listen to your inner voice on this deal. If you have to ask, you know it aint right. The remedy is to get all expenses up front.

FYI: I've bought and sold 3 aircraft. Brokered 6 others.
 
38bat said:
Thanks guys. I am not really worked up about it, I just want it to be fair to both of us. Please note that this was an ebay sale and I do think that is relevant as it spells out performance.

As for ebay auction terms I asked for a 1k deposit at close of auction and balance by bank wire within 5 days(I even offered to throw in my anywheremap gps if he paid within auction terms). I offered test flights, inspections, whatever you need prior to bidding. I had 24 plus pictures, scanned him 337's and logbooks etc.. so I represented fairly. I also have 1207 positive feedback as a powerseller in the last 12 months and have sold boats, cars, real estate etc.. He has 4 positive feedbacks, none within the last 12 months. While that doesn't necessarily mean anything.... I am also a little concerned that he has not even solo'd so his expectations may or not be in line. I do not mind at all delivering but I would not choose to go to Wichita given a choice.

What say you? JOE
Click to expand...

Joe,

by bidding on an airplane the buyer & you have entered into a legal contract. If the buyer asked for logs and 337's he is likely to have done a bit more than let his 3 y.o. bid on an ebay auction. The deposit was paid I suppose? However you turn and twist it, the buyer hasn't really indicated to be untrustworthy. Yes, it is a hassle to fly the airplane for 600 miles and yes, you may incure expenses which you need to cover. As you state you have sold items before, you are probably well aware of ebay's rules.

The legal ownership is not in question. Where is the title?
Who's name is on it? Thats that. On a delivery, without the full balance paid you will carry insurance for the trip, Waco's concerns are noble and somewhat correct - but not really an issue. You are the legal owner either ferrying your own plane to a buyer or contracting someone to do it for you. Your cup of tea if you agree to it.

The only things I can give you after having been in this business for a few years is to make sure your airplane does not end up taken apart with a buyer exercising his right to back out of the deal once he/ she has an A&P or IA check the box out 600 miles from home.

The buyer can be expected to pay an non refundable deposit to cover your expenses by doing him the favor of delivery. If he backs out, so be it, leave your feedback accordingly. The rest can and would likely be settled in a court of law.

I have never released funds before having the plane on my ramp, or upon finishing the prebuy at the owners ramp.

Cheers,
 
When I bought my last plane, I flew my uncles Bonanza to Chandler (900 miles)to do a pre-buy inspection with my A&P.

After title searches and such, we made the Switch in ELP, I did a final check and called the bank to wire his money. We had lunch, he checked with his bank, title was transferred I gave him a buddy pass to get home, and I flew the airplane home.

I'm not slamming your airplane, but this guy was seriosly stupid too not do a pre-buy inspection prior to making a deal. What one A&P thinks is no big deal, another will see dollar signs or worse ground the plane on the spot. I've seen it happen:banghead::banghead:
 
BillErvin said:
When I bought my last plane, I flew my uncles Bonanza to Chandler (900 miles)to do a pre-buy inspection with my A&P.

After title searches and such, we made the Switch in ELP, I did a final check and called the bank to wire his money. We had lunch, he checked with his bank, title was transferred I gave him a buddy pass to get home, and I flew the airplane home.

I'm not slamming your airplane, but this guy was seriosly stupid too not do a pre-buy inspection prior to making a deal. What one A&P thinks is no big deal, another will see dollar signs or worse ground the plane on the spot. I've seen it happen:banghead::banghead:
Click to expand...

I know all about that..... exactly why my 1st annual was 10k!
 
Cessna414JJB said:
Joe,

by bidding on an airplane the buyer & you have entered into a legal contract. If the buyer asked for logs and 337's he is likely to have done a bit more than let his 3 y.o. bid on an ebay auction. The deposit was paid I suppose? However you turn and twist it, the buyer hasn't really indicated to be untrustworthy. Yes, it is a hassle to fly the airplane for 600 miles and yes, you may incure expenses which you need to cover. As you state you have sold items before, you are probably well aware of ebay's rules.

The legal ownership is not in question. Where is the title?
Who's name is on it? Thats that. On a delivery, without the full balance paid you will carry insurance for the trip, Waco's concerns are noble and somewhat correct - but not really an issue. You are the legal owner either ferrying your own plane to a buyer or contracting someone to do it for you. Your cup of tea if you agree to it.

The only things I can give you after having been in this business for a few years is to make sure your airplane does not end up taken apart with a buyer exercising his right to back out of the deal once he/ she has an A&P or IA check the box out 600 miles from home.

The buyer can be expected to pay an non refundable deposit to cover your expenses by doing him the favor of delivery. If he backs out, so be it, leave your feedback accordingly. The rest can and would likely be settled in a court of law.

I have never released funds before having the plane on my ramp, or upon finishing the prebuy at the owners ramp.

Cheers,
Click to expand...

I have no reason to think he is untrustworthy and thus far he has been fine. No mention has been made of a pre-buy at all. Also please remember that this was an ebay auction bringing a wholesale price. I offered test flight, inspections and anything else prior to auction close. You bid, you buy is the way I look at it. This is not a win the auction and then check it out and see if you want to buy it. I have nothing to hide either so no worries there for me. The 1k deposit was through paypal which means I as the seller will 99% of the time lose if there is a dispute regardless of the circumstances.

I will just get expenses up front and hope for the best. FWIW I own the plane until it is paid in full and have my own insurance. Crash on delivery= deposit refund and I settle with my insurance company. He already has procured insurance also, though I don't think that makes much difference. I have the title until the wire is in my account.
 
I concur on get the ferry costs paid upfront. Wires can be done VERY quickly (especially if started in the AM) so I wouldn't be to bugged about not getting the money until it's delivered. When I bought my plane, I planned on going out to ferry it myself, but after a couple of issues, the seller brought it out for me (he wanted to spend a few days in San Antonio anyway). I was lucky in that I had a pre-buy/annual done by someone I trusted prior to getting the plane. When the plane got here, I called the bank, the wire was done in about an hour and the title was handed over. Very simple deal, hell, easier than a car.
 
38bat said:
FWIW I own the plane until it is paid in full and have my own insurance.
Click to expand...

Actually, you own the plane until you sign the Bill of Sale.

I sold my plane to a guy who lived about 1000 miles away. (I didn't use Ebay--I use a more traditional method.) He was also a student pilot who intended to show up with his CFI and fly it home with his CFI after I gave his CFI a checkout.

He ended up having my own mechanic do the prebuy (even though we both advised him against it), buying the plane sight unseen, and sending me the balance of the purchase price. After he figured how much a pair of one-way airline ticket were he hired a ferry pilot for delivery services. The ferry pilot could do it much cheaper than either of us could and it kept me out of that part of the deal.

I talked to him a few weeks after the plane arrived at his airport and he was happy with the deal. However, I never would have agreed to this deal as a buyer. In my deal I held all the cards and the buyer had nothing but my word that I would hold up my end of the bargain. If I had it to do over again, I'd use an escrow service.
 
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