Plane off runway in Buffalo

Baronman said:
I agree no ACARS is fine...Not a show stopper. But it's added ammunition if I get any pushback about adding fuel or an alternate.

Why no ALT? Who knows. In my experience especially at a regional if the TAF didn't go below the 1-2-3 rule there was rarely an alternate added. And if Dispatch didn't take a look at the route and see the weather, well then we were dispatched probably with 45Min plus the typical 15Min they always added. Thunderstorms in the TAF frequently show 2000' ceilings and not the worst VIS however they definitely (probably more than anything) affect our ability to operate in and out of a field.

I hate to say but this scenario plays out pretty frequently at regionals especially down across TX and up in the northeast where lots of weather passes through. You're quick turning all day at one of United's horribly outfitted hubs, trying to find a working kiosk to get your weather. Dealing with all the headaches of IAD, and you don't spend as much time as you should have checking the WX. It's happened to me before.....Learned from it.
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When I was at a regional...we were taught to LOOK at what the weather was doing. Apparently, the National Weather Service likes to blow forecasts (say it isn't so!). It's common sense. When I train people, I tell them not to just look at the forecast, but use the tools we provide to you to make an informed decision. Dispatchers and pilots are a team and if I don't look out for you, you don't look out for me, and CRM/DRM is right out of the window.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
True. But this isn't the military, this is boring Part 121 operations. :)
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Autothrust Blue said:
I actually can understand that, if you don't know where your line and diversionary stations are. (I don't LIKE it, but I get it.)

I do wish I had a diversionary airport map up front. Basically, a map of all places ~6000' (or maybe even shorter when everything in the stopping department is working properly) long where I can get a jetbridge, maybe the paramedics if I need them, and Jet A. (I have the Alternates manual and the line stations manual, but I don't have (beyond a knowledge of where I am, and where I've been before at any given time) a map of these places.
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That's why I'm curious how it was asked and what the actual verbiage was.

There's a large difference between "ATC, will you please find an alternate for me to go to?" versus "ATC, based on what you guys are seeing WX-wise, what alternates out there are looking useable currently? General suggestions?"
 
Baronman said:
I agree no ACARS is fine...Not a show stopper. But it's added ammunition if I get any pushback about adding fuel or an alternate.

Why no ALT? Who knows. In my experience especially at a regional if the TAF didn't go below the 1-2-3 rule there was rarely an alternate added. And if Dispatch didn't take a look at the route and see the weather, well then we were dispatched probably with 45Min plus the typical 15Min they always added. Thunderstorms in the TAF frequently show 2000' ceilings and not the worst VIS however they definitely (probably more than anything) affect our ability to operate in and out of a field.

I hate to say but this scenario plays out pretty frequently at regionals especially down across TX and up in the northeast where lots of weather passes through. You're quick turning all day at one of United's horribly outfitted hubs, trying to find a working kiosk to get your weather. Dealing with all the headaches of IAD, and you don't spend as much time as you should have checking the WX. It's happened to me before.....Learned from it.
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I've seen tons of captains at both regionals and mainline that simply throw away the biggest single piece of ammunition they have with dispatch... the signature on the release.

The flight doesn't go without that signature. Don't give it away so easily. Too many times I have seen captains sign he release without even looking at the document. Know what you are signing.

As far as dispatch not looking at the weather... pick up the phone, call them and request a weather briefing. Make them look at the weather and make sure that both the entire flight crew and dispatcher are all on the same page. If you feel like you are getting task loaded, delegate something to your FO or simply stop the operation. A flight going on time is secondary to a flight going safely.
 
MikeD said:
That's why I'm curious how it was asked and what the actual verbiage was.

There's a large difference between "ATC, will you please find an alternate for me to go to?" versus "ATC, based on what you guys are seeing WX-wise, what alternates out there are looking useable currently? General suggestions?"
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I agree.
Even when you have an alternate, that is an FAR requirement for preflight planning. It's not written in stone. Heck, once the wheels are off the ground there is no FAR requirement to go to that alternate (though some might argue that lost comms is one scenario), and on several occasions I have diverted to airports that were not legal preflight planning alternates. In some cases it was easier to get weather information on alternates from ATC rather than dispatch (pre ACARs). On one occasion when I had to declare an emergency during a winter Noreaster' it was easier for me to ask ATC for possible diversion airports based upon weather than to listen to multiple ATIS reports. Once I phone patched dispatch I worked with them, but it was more to finalize and confirm the plan I'd worked with ATC.
 
Blackhawk said:
I agree.
Even when you have an alternate, that is an FAR requirement for preflight planning. It's not written in stone. Heck, once the wheels are off the ground there is no FAR requirement to go to that alternate (though some might argue that lost comms is one scenario), and on several occasions I have diverted to airports that were not legal preflight planning alternates. In some cases it was easier to get weather information on alternates from ATC rather than dispatch (pre ACARs). On one occasion when I had to declare an emergency during a winter Noreaster' it was easier for me to ask ATC for possible diversion airports based upon weather than to listen to multiple ATIS reports. Once I phone patched dispatch I worked with them, but it was more to finalize and confirm the plan I'd worked with ATC.
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Agreed. My first example is basically "ATC, please fly my airplane for me!"; my second example is "ATC, since you guys have a broad picture down there and can likely get info quicker, can I enlist some help/info from you, to assist me in making an informed command decision".

Easy to get ATC to help you out in that way, so you can get yourself pointed in a correct direction, rather than burning precious time (fuel) doing it all yourself. Even having departed with a plan, with an alternate; crap changes up there often and without warning, as you well know.
 
Baronman said:
I listened to the Live ATC......the Mesa part was pretty non-eventful. Sounds like they wanted vectors to wait the storm out. Cleared to land. Next thing they're cleared off the runway and they say they're in the grass.

More cringe-worth was a Go-Jet arriving into the area.....Tells approach they don't have gas for much deviating and they don't have an alternate....Then asks the approach to give them an alternate airport, approach suggests ROC. GoJet pilot tells approach to write a # down....Select option #1 and tell our dispatch that we're diverting, our ACARS is out. Nice dispatcher.....Sends them up to BUF with weather and no alternate and no ACARS at midnight. Sucks.
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@z987k I was going to comment, but I think you would be able to do a better rant! :)
 
Oh great! Last time something happened at Buffalo we got an arbitrary hour requirement, simulator requirements, and new writ requirements.

Now what? My guess is that Congress will require a certain number of simulator hours just taxiing around and landing only followed by a written exam on how to apply the landing data numbers and use the brakes at the same time. Can't wait........
 
dustoff17 said:
Oh great! Last time something happened at Buffalo we got an arbitrary hour requirement, simulator requirements, and new writ requirements.

Now what? My guess is that Congress will require a certain number of simulator hours just taxiing around and landing only followed by a written exam on how to apply the landing data numbers and use the brakes at the same time. Can't wait........
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ATPII - Airport Taxiing Pilot Level II
 
ctab5060X said:
I've seen tons of captains at both regionals and mainline that simply throw away the biggest single piece of ammunition they have with dispatch... the signature on the release.

The flight doesn't go without that signature. Don't give it away so easily. Too many times I have seen captains sign he release without even looking at the document. Know what you are signing.

As far as dispatch not looking at the weather... pick up the phone, call them and request a weather briefing. Make them look at the weather and make sure that both the entire flight crew and dispatcher are all on the same page. If you feel like you are getting task loaded, delegate something to your FO or simply stop the operation. A flight going on time is secondary to a flight going safely.
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Bingo. Too many times I see or hear of a PIC that doesn't know how to exercise his/her rights. It was forecast to be garbage weather in BUF, no alternate?! Come on...
 
I think part of the issue (though it may not have had an impact on this incident) is the release/NOTAM system. Some day I would like to lay out a release in my hotel room and take a picture of it, especially one with an alternate and maybe even a take off alternate. Reems upon reems of information. Talk about a dump of information- information overload. Multiply that by 4-6 flights a day and it is nearly impossible NOT to miss something. Hopefully what you miss is trivial, but I've seen pilots get bit. I remember one NOTAM many years ago about unlit barriers on a closed high speed. Pilot missed it and plowed into the barrier.
Of course when that happens we all cluck and say "Never me."
Hopefully the EFB and the ability to give that information on the chart will help alleviate this. Well, at least Foreflight can do it. Select the ILS 22R at DTW and if there are any NOTAMS associated with the approach they pop up. Same with the airport diagram.
 
Blackhawk said:
When things go right the job of an airline pilot is pretty easy. When things hit the crapper, however, one must delve into the backpack of experience and start pulling things out. Sometimes it's recognizing problems before they arise or being ahead of events. More than once I've even had experienced FO's who had solutions better than mine. Even happened this past Friday on one of those flights were "if it can go wrong, it will go wrong" and the 8 year FO was on ball.
Were the events described above due to quick upgrades? Tough to tell at this point. I've seen experienced crews mess up. Just look what happened to the UPS recently.
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...that is the entire purpose of having actual pilots in the front of the airplane.

Pilots: regardless of experience, longevity, or crew position, you don't exist to babysit the FMS as it flies the aerospace vehicle through the National Airspace System. You are there to handle stuff when things don't go according to plan. If you aren't ready for that, then you are not doing your job, period.
 
Hacker15e said:
...that is the entire purpose of having actual pilots in the front of the airplane.

Pilots: regardless of experience, longevity, or crew position, you don't exist to babysit the FMS as it flies the aerospace vehicle through the National Airspace System. You are there to handle stuff when things don't go according to plan. If you aren't ready for that, then you are not doing your job, period.
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That briefs well. As seen on this board, however, the driving factor when looking for a job at an FFD is not the training you will get, it is not the experience you will get as an FO, not even the contract. No- it is "how fast will I upgrade". Heck, I know pilots who have less than 1 year 121 experience who are instructors at major FFD carriers with fast upgrades.
 
You'd think in the 2015 world of graphical products and tablet EFB's you could have a dispatch release come in via an app, and on the wx brief part of it would be a map with your nice purply line drawn to your destination, and then a little dotted purply line to the planned alternate if required (which by magic would be the most optimum alternate given the info at the time). the destination would have a little dot on it that would be color coded. Green = no alternate needed (again based on a complete wx picture including Tstorms pictured/forecast and NOTAMs), Amber = alternate required, Red = WX forecast within 200 feet of MDA/DH or Within 1 mile/5000RVR of Visibility Mins. Black = No dispatch. Apply that to takeoff alternate ADM as well. You'd think someone would be getting on something like that.

Edit to add: Furthermore, on the map, any other airports in the region would also have the color coded dot over them to assist in alternate planning.
 
MikeD said:
Think that's bad? Just wait until what happens when the Bills win a Super Bowl......
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The Toronto Bills?
I will never forget the 1990 Super Bowl. Up there with the '86 World Series. Victory snatched from the jaws of defeat.
 
gotWXdagain said:
You'd think in the 2015 world of graphical products and tablet EFB's you could have a dispatch release come in via an app, and on the wx brief part of it would be a map with your nice purply line drawn to your destination, and then a little dotted purply line to the planned alternate if required (which by magic would be the most optimum alternate given the info at the time). the destination would have a little dot on it that would be color coded. Green = no alternate needed (again based on a complete wx picture including Tstorms pictured/forecast and NOTAMs), Amber = alternate required, Red = WX forecast within 200 feet of MDA/DH or Within 1 mile/5000RVR of Visibility Mins. Black = No dispatch. Apply that to takeoff alternate ADM as well. You'd think someone would be getting on something like that.

Edit to add: Furthermore, on the map, any other airports in the region would also have the color coded dot over them to assist in alternate planning.
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Easier and cheaper to just blame the pilot.
Didn't he see on line 53, page 65 of his release that the high speed was closed???? What an idiot.
Cluck cluck.
 
gotWXdagain said:
You'd think in the 2015 world of graphical products and tablet EFB's you could have a dispatch release come in via an app
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It does depending on the company. We get everything electronic on our iPhone, and iPad.
N numbers and airports were blurred out:
2ntxpn5.jpg
 
Inverted said:
It does depending on the company. We get everything electronic on our iPhone, and iPad.
N numbers and airports were blurred out:
2ntxpn5.jpg
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Corporate aviation us way ahead when it comes to incorporating technology. TMC has something similar and my current company is moving in that direction. Our dispatchers are all licensed with years of experience, are compensated well, and have low workloads.
 
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