Plane Lands on Taxiway at KSEA

Lawman said:
Sorta in the same kind of stupidity....


So I'm in a 64E (fully instrument capable Apache) doing a non-precision approach into Colorado Springs. This is using the same NDB that is standard on all the D model helicopters in the 2 D model battalions we share the base with.

I'm inside on the instruments completely focused on lining up the needle for the 35L and we are just perfect as you can expect an NDB to be. That's when approach starts calling us to deviate course... On an instrument approach. Now it happens to be a practice in VFR weather so my back seater instrument examiner is outside visual and he just goes "wtf..." And so I cheat and look up on short final.... Needles are perfect and we are lined up dead on to land 35R.... We would have to turn something like 30 degrees to even hope to make the approach end of 35L.

So needless to say we terminate the approach and execute the ugliest go around with turn, but I can't help but think this place is our primary emergency recovery field we brief. Now I in an E model am never gonna take an NDB over my ILS, and honestly I'd do my non approved GPS first if I had to. But the D models don't have that option. They only have the GPS and NDB.

Definitely pointed out the ability for somebody to be legal on an emergency IMC recovery and in confusion of "oh thank go there is the field" put it onto an active runway you aren't cleared to land on at a major airport.
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I had a similar experience teaching a student to do an off airport VOR approach to W29. VOR was all the way over in Baltimore. Guy had the needles centered and we ended up closer to Kentmore air park than W29.

"Well...what was supposed to happen was...you did a good job though."

That approach no longer exists.
 
Screaming_Emu said:
I had a similar experience teaching a student to do an off airport VOR approach to W29. VOR was all the way over in Baltimore. Guy had the needles centered and we ended up closer to Kentmore air park than W29.

"Well...what was supposed to happen was...you did a good job though."

That approach no longer exists.
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The VOR 31 to CKN is gone for the same reason. We did the math, one could be something like five miles either direction of the field and still be within PTS standards for the approach.
 
Honestly as scary as that approach was it had nothing on the crap I saw going into Manila.

ILS down the needles on an embassy flight from Zamboanga.
Had 3 pilots in the back of the C-12 on approach looking out the window up at buildings with cranes in the roof that were only 100-200 meters away. All of us looked at each other and went "who the hell terped this approach out."


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Richman said:
I'm with Derg on this one.

On the Mighty -9, this was easy peasy....point the nose of the airplane to the different runway, and MAYBE have the other guy dial in the ILS freq. Take your distance times 3, and add it to the elevation and that's what altitude you should be at if you're having a problem eyeballing it. Usually both pilots were used to it, and totally with the program.

A couple of button pushes and my current chariot reverts back to DC-9s-ville. BUT....as Derg said, the payback is meager, and messing up your hot-rodding is not well rewarded by the uberlords.

If you do it the way you're supposed to do it, one guy has to QUIT monitoring what's going on outside. Hop in the box. make at least 7-8 keystrokes, looking for menu items in a time compressed fashion with %100 accuracy or start over. Go back and check what he's done is correct, THEN get the other guy to verify it looks right. When he/she gets done, he has to look up, and get re-combobulated to what's going on outside, during which you've moved at least 1 mile and 300 feet closer to the ground. MAYBE the guy you're flying with has been in there before...and maybe not.

No upside, lots of downside. Hey, I want to help out, but I don't want to @#@# my @(#*@ up in the process.

Richman
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Visual. Eyeballs. Outside. VISUUUUUAAAAL. Vis, y'all!!! :D
 
Hacker15e said:
It is pretty hilarious that the visual maneuver of switching from one parallel runway to another requires any button-pushing at all.
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Yups!!! What he ^^ said...

Buttons?!? We dounneed no steenking buttons.
 
Fly_Unity said:
A sidestep is not allowed per SOPs at some companies? Thats crazy. I thought the circle to land restriction was overboard. I guess thats why I like my current job to much to go to an airline!

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You more than likely can hand fly better than me and a majority of airline pilots. But when boss man who pays my bills says,"Fly it this way because," you are going to do it. Unless brown side is up or we have lost almost all, I'm going to follow SOPs.
 
Soul Brotha' said:
You more than likely can hand fly better than me and a majority of airline pilots. But when boss man who pays my bills says,"Fly it this way because," you are going to do it. Unless brown side is up or we have lost almost all, I'm going to follow SOPs.
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Im not arguing with you, just surprised how "automated" flying is becoming.
 
Hacker15e said:
It is pretty hilarious that the visual maneuver of switching from one parallel runway to another requires any button-pushing at all.
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Welcome to the Airbus.

And the litigious world of the passenger airline business!

The "Book" wants you flying at the highest level of automation unless you're in visual conditions.

When in visual conditions, you need to have some approach plugged in, if available.

If you dont, and just whip it over and "something" happens, you've disregarded company procedure, willfully, and the FAA gets a stiffie because you showed willful disregard of the OpsSpecs which the company produced and which they granted their blessing to . You don't want the FAA to have a stiffie during an investigation.

Not saying that it's right or wrong, but it is what it is and a fight best left to be fought amongst the regulators and the company that handed me command of their $100 million dollar jet.

I think the idea of spending two to five minutes briefing a basic ILS approach is wasteful, but I don't have the money to buy my own A320.
 
Crop Duster said:
Visual. Eyeballs. Outside. VISUUUUUAAAAL. Vis, y'all!!! :D
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NOT a universal thing in all airplanes. Beech 1900, sure. AIrbus gets a little cranky when you get off the gameplan and there are a lot of Airbuses out there.

Just spitballing this, but we all do realize that the rules that apply to most airplanes don't necessarily pertain to all aircraft types and operations. 230 to the market may work awesome in a Metroliner, but you're going to get your ass whipped in a 'Bus doing that.

I sincerely suggest whitewater rafting to see glory rather than some other man's airplane.
 
Derg said:
NOT a universal thing in all airplanes. Beech 1900, sure. AIrbus gets a little cranky when you get off the gameplan and there are a lot of Airbuses out there.

Just spitballing this, but we all do realize that the rules that apply to most airplanes don't necessarily pertain to all aircraft types and operations. 230 to the market may work awesome in a Metroliner, but you're going to get your ass whipped in a 'Bus doing that.

I sincerely suggest whitewater rafting to see glory rather than some other man's airplane.
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I witnessed that on a LCC bus with a 500' stabilized in VMC rule. A lotttttttt of work but they did it.
 
Derg said:
NOT a universal thing in all airplanes. Beech 1900, sure. AIrbus gets a little cranky when you get off the gameplan and there are a lot of Airbuses out there.
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Airbii?

Just spitballing this, but we all do realize that the rules that apply to most airplanes don't necessarily pertain to all aircraft types and operations. 230 to the marker may work awesome in a Metroliner, but you're going to get your ass whipped in a 'Bus doing that..
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That is correct on the rules, techniques, procedures, etc, from one plane to another or one op to another.

This was easily seen in guys coming to the 117 and flying formation. On a formation rejoin, guys were used to in other airframes, just raging into a join-up, then manipulating the power or racking out the speed brakes in order to slide into position......do-able, but kind of shoddy and non-precise. They get to the 117, and it has no "crutches"...no speed brakes, no flaps, no nothing. Just throttles, and a sleek body with permanent highly swept wings. Try that shoddy maneuvering with being used to crutches, or try coming in to rejoin without having the overtake speed checked long before, and expect to zip right by the lead jet, and not be able to do a darn thing about it, even at idle.......which you should've been at long before. Those that have and those that will, and it's generally a gross error that takes only once to screw up royally before dialing-in your game and getting serious about flying precision formation work/planning once again, with no crutches.
 
ClarkGriswold said:
I witnessed that on a LCC bus with a 500' stabilized in VMC rule. A lotttttttt of work but they did it.
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I once told a captain that the speed restriction for Class D was stupid, if you're going that fast on approach something is screwed up. A few legs later I watched keep 250 knots until 4 miles out. Stable by 500', as the FOM required. A lot of work for the FO.
 
Adler said:
I once told a captain that the speed restriction for Class D was stupid, if you're going that fast on approach something is screwed up. A few legs later I watched keep 250 knots until 4 miles out. Stable by 500', as the FOM required. A lot of work for the FO.
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"Flaps on speed" or something
 
270kt gear limit speed for extension in the 737. Best speed brakes in the world.

Though I once saw an Italian captain speed up (320 the limit) after lowering them :eek2:
 
We declared a medical emergency yesterday and diverted to Slc. They gave us a direct to ogd then the airport...when we got close we said we wanted 34r and and to start a down wind turn instead of going to Ogden first. The response was "on request" I get that we don't have the big picture and know the traffic around us but come on. And then to top it off they vectored us on final around and behind another airplane extending our downwind.....granted I've never declared a 121 emergency before but I am under the impression they are supposed to clear everyone out of your way
 
ian said:
We declared a medical emergency yesterday and diverted to Slc. They gave us a direct to ogd then the airport...when we got close we said we wanted 34r and and to start a down wind turn instead of going to Ogden first. The response was "on request" I get that we don't have the big picture and know the traffic around us but come on. And then to top it off they vectored us on final around and behind another airplane extending our downwind.....granted I've never declared a 121 emergency before but I am under the impression they are supposed to clear everyone out of your way
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How was your commute home after?
 
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ian said:
We declared a medical emergency yesterday and diverted to Slc. They gave us a direct to ogd then the airport...when we got close we said we wanted 34r and and to start a down wind turn instead of going to Ogden first. The response was "on request" I get that we don't have the big picture and know the traffic around us but come on. And then to top it off they vectored us on final around and behind another airplane extending our downwind.....granted I've never declared a 121 emergency before but I am under the impression they are supposed to clear everyone out of your way
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What runway were you initially assigned? Was the weather bad? What is close when you asked for 34R? Where did you turn base?
 
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