pitch=airspeed; power=altitude


Yes, we have covered this guys understanding of aircraft dynamics in our last thread. Here is just a snippet:

Assume you're in stable, level flight, constant speed. Your instructor says to increase your speed by 10 knots, while maintaining altitude. Even a moron isn't going to have to think twice about this, he'll add power, there just ain't any other way to get there from here

He won't just add power, he will subsequently pitch to keep from gaining altitude. Hard to read an article when examples given demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of basic flight dynamics. Especially when those examples are used as the "proof" to his argument.

PS: OK mike, you were right. Here is a link to the last thread on that topic that I remember: http://forums.jetcareers.com/cfi-corner/90927-breaking-elevator-altitude-habit.html Page 4 is when deakin was addressed I believe.

subpilot said:
You all need to wrap up this thread soon so that we can get ready for next weeks pitch/power thread.
:rotfl: I love some of these random sarcastic interjections.
 
In the scenario you're describing, the flaw in analysis is once again the conflation of pitch with AoA. Pitch does not control airspeed, AoA does. Anyone who says pitch will keep themselves and others confused forever. :rolleyes: I'd like to wire a 12-volt battery to someone's tongue and each time I hear "pitch", ZAP!

The pilot that flares high needs to reduce his AoA to increase airspeed, but he needs to add power to adjust the descent rate to reasonable levels. Or, if he isn't about to stall, he can just fly the airplane to the ground in that horrible attitude with sufficient power. I've done both and seen both.

Larry, you can't come up with a scenario in which using AoA to control airspeed and excess power to control altitude will not work, because that's the way that both techniques work, no matter how the pilot chooses to think about it. I have four shelves of aeronautical engineering texts that say so.;) It wouldn't surprise me if you had one lying around that agreed with mine.

(caveat: let's ignore flight paths of 90 degrees, okay? :) )

Not disputing the physice behind your statements, but most the aiplanes I fly dont have AoA instruments, they have pitch instruments. So untill you convince ALL light piston manufacturers to install AoA instruments I will continue to use the word "pitch". Because I have an attitude indicator that show me "pitch".
 
Who flies an ILS in the region of reverse command? I sure as hell don't! And if you are, you're dangerous!!

The point really didn't sail that high over your head did it? :confused:

PS take your instrument hat off for a moment, it seems most of us are discussing primary students. I said "pitch for glide slope" only because it was Larry's terminology, not to literally be talking about an ILS glide slope.

Because I have an attitude indicator that show me "pitch".

Ahah! This is exactly why he made the distinction between the two. Pitch has absolutely zero relationship to the AOA and that is where a student may get confused.

I am at fault for the same thing, calling it pitch for airspeed that is, but I am trying to change that. T can I borrow that battery?
 
The point really didn't sail that high over your head did it? :confused:

PS take your instrument hat off for a moment, it seems most of us are discussing primary students. I said "pitch for glide slope" only because it was Larry's terminology, not to literally be talking about an ILS glide slope.



Ahah! This is exactly why he made the distinction between the two. Pitch has absolutely zero relationship to the AOA and that is where a student may get confused.

I am at fault for the same thing, calling it pitch for airspeed that is, but I am trying to change that. T can I borrow that battery?

Yes, I guess i was thinking a little too far ahead.... But any glide slope for that fact I dont fly in reverse command
 
I've always thought that AOA indicators should be installed on all airplanes, especially new ones. Given all the other fancy stuff they have in the glass cockpits, why not an AOA indicator!?

I flew an RV-10 that had one and it was very cool to fly the AOA on final and not airspeed.
 
I've always thought that AOA indicators should be installed on all airplanes, especially new ones. Given all the other fancy stuff they have in the glass cockpits, why not an AOA indicator!?

I flew an RV-10 that had one and it was very cool to fly the AOA on final and not airspeed.

:yeahthat: I just did a 2 min google search and it looks like only a few hundred bucks to install. Would be a wonderful learning and safety tool IMO. Can even attach warning lights and all the bells and whistles to really drive you crazy during slow flight practice.
 
In Larry's scenario, in a ballooning flare, the airplane is slow (pitch down), and high (reduce power). That would be the wrong response, wouldn't it?

The power reduction is the wrong move (unless the plane is very high), but the reduction in AoA is the right move. The throttle needs to be adjusted to control the flight path that results from the AoA change. This is always the case.

Remember that the balloon is caused by too rapid increase in AoA during the flair; this is a conversion of kinetic into potential energy and is only temporary. Once the increase in AoA stops or reverses itself, the descent is going to continue; the increased power changes the rate at which that descent occurs.


On short short final, the student sees the airplane is going to fly through the power lines at the end of the runway, so he adds power. He's not fast, so there's no pitch up - or increase in AoA
A guy on one of the newsgroups reported that he had stalled his airplane in a similar scenarion; I pointed out that I thought it was due in a large part to thinking of the yoke as the *primary* means of altitude control. I think the first reaction ought to be to add power, then increase AoA as appropriate. This is the way that we perform a go around or a CFIT escape maneuver. The increase in AoA performs two functions: 1) Converts kinetic energy into instant altitude, and 2) Establishes the aircraft closer to the best angle of climb airspeed....maybe. But note that the increase in AoA needs to be intelligently directed, not a panicky "pitch for altitude", because an excessive increase in AoA could put the aircraft into such a high drag position that it degrades his climb performance, rather than enhancing it. What I see as a similar problem is during a power off glide, the pilot keeps increasing his AoA in the unconscious belief that this will improve his ability to preserve altitude. Better to think of the yoke as the drag control.;)

Which leads back to another important issue: it's not power that produces altitude, it's excess power. I point out over and over again that you can produce excess power two ways: increase the throttle setting or change your airspeed to one that requires less power to maintain. (third way: reduce drag by raising flaps or gear.)
 
So untill you convince ALL light piston manufacturers to install AoA instruments I will continue to use the word "pitch". Because I have an attitude indicator that show me "pitch".

You don't need an AoA indicator, because we don't care about absolute values of AoA, we care about relative ones. If you're slow, pushing on the yoke reduces your AoA...you don't have any need to know what that AoA is.

Using the word "pitch" will prevent you from ever talking coherently on this subject. And since we think with the words we use, you won't be able to think about it properly either. The first step to thinking precisely is to use precise words.
 
And we (me and tgrayson) have both pointed out that this is wrong. One technique is entirely based on physical law.

I don't think you understand what I mean when I use the word "technique". As I said much earlier in this thread, in a given situation, both techniques result in the application of the same control inputs. The difference is only in why you decided to make them.

You cannot use pitch for glide slope (altitude) in the region of reverse command.

You can. I can fly Slow Flight to PTS standards using either technique. As I said, you end up with the same control inputs regardless of technique.

It has nothing to do with one technique being deemed safer than another?

That depends on the situation. Many techniques are implemented just for standardization because it's safer if everyone, on every crew, does it the same way. There are often more than one safe way to do the same thing. Other procedures are established for their specific safety benefits.

In light pistons, pitch = AS | power = alt, will not fail if applied in any situation ever.

That's not true. AoA = A/S, not pitch. Pitch effects AoA as does the power setting.

Why in the heck would the student decrease power.

He decreased power because we were too high and his primary instructor had drilled into him that pitch=A/S, power=Altitude, was a law of physics. He applied it by rote without understanding the context in which he was operating.

The same student, a low-time Private Pilot who earned his license in 1979 and hadn't flown since 1980, made the other pitch/power mistake that has been mentioned. He initiated a go-around by increasing to full power while holding the nose down as he make his radio report on CTAF or Tower (yes, he made this mistake more than once). The result was that we accelerated toward the runway at an impressive rate.

It eventually took about 8 hours to get this guy proficient again after his nearly 30-year absence from flying. I did it by teaching him the alternate technique, and the proper way to apply the pitch=A/S technique. Once he understood, and could fly, using either technique he had a more complete understanding of the effects of the primary controls and could consistently maneuver the airplane safely in every situation that I presented.

If you always use pitch when you are sinking to control altitude, ...

If you always use power to control altitude you will similarly fail in the two real life situations that I described above. You can't say that a technique fails because it doesn't work when it's improperly applied. Both techniques fail when they are improperly applied.

The power reduction is the wrong move (unless the plane is very high), but the reduction in AoA is the right move.

Agreed. People are teaching "Pitch=A/S", not "AoA=A/S". I agree that AoA=A/S. Pitch=A/S is just one part of a larger overall technique which, when correctly applied, works well. The alternate technique also works well.

The throttle needs to be adjusted to control the flight path that results from the AoA change. This is always the case.

Those control inputs are always the case but the reasoning for making those inputs does not have to be as you stated. The situation can also be flown safely and precisely by adding power to maintain/increase A/S while the pitch is adjusted to control the flight path. In the end, you make the exact same control inputs.

Remember that the balloon is caused by...

Doesn't really matter how he ended up high and slow. There are other ways in which a pilot might arrive in that situation other than a too-rapid increase in pitch. In this case he simply flared (way) too high. The rate of pitch and AoA increase was not rapid, it was quite normal. It just happened about 50' too high.

You've identified the real problem here which is people saying "Pitch" when they mean "AoA". When I say that pitch can be used to control flight path they are thinking that pitch and AoA are the same. They are not. You seem to be saying, however, that pitch controls AoA which is not correct. Pitch affects AoA, power affects AoA. To achieve a desired AoA, i.e. a desired airspeed, you must apply both controls in a coordinated manner.

I agree with all of the equations that have been posted. They describe mathematically what is occurring. What they do not do is tell you how you MUST operate the controls. The two competing techniques give pilots two ways to break down a complex situation and decide what control inputs to make to achieve the desired performance. As I've said, in a set situation, both techniques, properly applied, will result in the exact same control inputs. That will keep all of your formulas happy.
 
You seem to be saying, however, that pitch controls AoA which is not correct.

Are you using "pitch" to mean the yoke? If so, then yes, it does control AoA and I posted the diagrams that showed it, along with the equation. Power only affects AoA if there is a slipstream effect on the horizontal stabilizer or the thrustline acts other than through the CG. While these effects can be significant in some airplanes, they are secondary effects and the yoke can override them. Pure thrust acting through the CG has no effect on AoA, since it provides no pitching moment. If you think that power affects AoA in some other way, you'll have to be more explicit and posting some mathematics would be helpful, or references to pages in some aerodynamics book.

If you mean "pitch" in the flight path sense, this can have no effect on equilibrium AoA, since the longitudinal stability acts to keep the trimmed AoA along whatever flight path exists. The aircraft doesn't know it's climbing.

To achieve a desired AoA, i.e. a desired airspeed, you must apply both controls in a coordinated manner.
In no way. I can achieve the full range of AoA on the airplane and the full range of airspeeds using the yoke. I only need power if I wish to choose my flight path as well.

I can fly Slow Flight to PTS standards using either technique. As I said, you end up with the same control inputs regardless of technique.
Larry, by definition, the region of reverse command is where descent rate increases when the AoA is increased. You can't tell me that you can achieve sustained climbs by increasing AoA in slow flight. If you can, you weren't in the region of reverse command. You can certainly fix small altitude deviations by pitching, since this converts kinetic energy into potential, but the aircraft would start to descend without a large power addition. In this case, the increase in AoA only hurt you and you can only cover your mistake with large amounts of power.

The real test is getting low and slow in a C150 with 40 degree flaps on a hot day and trying to pitch for altitude. Pitching up only puts you further behind the power curve and into a position that you likely don't have enough power to compensate for. There are reputedly lots of crashes at high density altitude airports due to this fact.
 
I was out yesterday trying to test some of these theories making sure I didn't run my engine over squared and walked back the manifold pressure 1' per minute to prevent myself from shock cooling the engine.
 
I was out yesterday trying to test some of these theories making sure I didn't run my engine over squared and walked back the manifold pressure 1' per minute to prevent myself from shock cooling the engine.

But since you were paying to sit in the right seat you are doomed and should just throw in the towel and give up on aviation.......:D
 
Now I see why students who are assigned new instructors become so frustrated. Having to always be retaught how to fly by each new instructor on their dime.
 
Are you using "pitch" to mean the yoke?

I'm using pitch to mean pitch. The aircraft's longitudinal axis' relationship to the horizon which can be expressed as the number of degrees above, or below, the horizon and read directly on the attitude indicator.

If so, then yes, it does control AoA

It does not. I can fly a constant airspeed (AoA) at any number of pitch attitudes. Many different pitch attitudes, one airspeed, one AoA.

Power only affects AoA if there is a slipstream effect on the horizontal stabilizer or the thrustline acts other than through the CG.

So is the FAA wrong when it tells us to teach students that if thrust exceeds drag the aircraft will accelerate? Why are we teaching that instead of that thrust opposes weight?

since the longitudinal stability acts to keep the trimmed AoA along whatever flight path exists.

If the aircraft is allowed to return to it's trimmed airspeed then the pitch attitude will return the starting point and there will be no change in pitch.

by definition, the region of reverse command is where descent rate increases when the AoA is increased.

Pitch and AoA are not the same thing. I am controlling flight path with pitch, not AoA, and maintaining airspeed with power. As I've said multiple times, I will end up using the exact same control inputs using this technique as would I, or you, using your technique.

It works because the control inputs are the same. The equations don't know why the control inputs were made (the technique), they only know what control inputs were made.

The real test is getting low and slow in a C150 with 40 degree flaps on a hot day and trying to pitch for altitude.

With the Pitch=A/S technique you increase power to adjust your flight path upward, with the pitch=flight path technique you increase power to increase your airspeed. Two techniques, same control inputs.

You seem to be telling me that something that I do is impossible. You know me and my experience level. Why don't you believe me when I tell you that I can fly using either technique? Do you think that I'm somehow confused and don't understand what it is that I'm doing?
 
I'm using pitch to mean pitch. The aircraft's longitudinal axis' relationship to the horizon which can be expressed as the number of degrees above, or below, the horizon and read directly on the attitude indicator.

I'm not sure that we're communicating here on some fundamental level. I have never said that pitch controls anything; indeed, pitch using this definition is a result, not a cause. Pitch is the mathematical addition of the AoA, angle of incidence, and the flight path angle. The flight path angle is a function of excess thrust, as given by sin(climb angle) = (T-D)/Weight.

It does not. I can fly a constant airspeed (AoA) at any number of pitch attitudes. Many different pitch attitudes, one airspeed, one AoA.

Why are you conflating the elevator angle with pitch attitude? (Perhaps this relates to our miscommunication above?)

I'm going to ignore the rest of the post until we get the above straight. We're discussing too many issues to make progress.
 
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