PiperAircraft is back in the training fleet sales business

[T56Maniac]

Read the following article from flight global. Would be nice to see FSA invest in new Arrows.


PiperAircraft is back in the training fleet sales business, and anticipates enormous growth in pilot demand in the coming decade.

The company's Brunei-based director of fleet sales Chuck Glass estimates that there will be annual demand of 2,000-2,500 trained pilots in the Asia Pacific and Middle East over the next decade, and 600-700 training aircraft.

"Piper is back in the training market and we're excited by the interest we've received from pilot training schools around the region," says Glass. "I'm based in Asia because this is where the market is."

Piper's return to fleet sales stems from a 2009 change in ownership, which saw the US airframer purchased by Imprimis, a Singapore investment firm funded by the government of Brunei.

Glass has already enjoyed some success. In late February a pilot school owned by the Indonesian government ordered 18 single-engined Warrior aircraft, and a training school in Qatar recently received 10 single-engined Archers and four twin-engined Seneca Vs.

Piper is also in talks with China's Civil Aviation Flight University. The school operates seven Seminole aircraft, but is interested in acquiring 23 more.

"We're working on a number of other deals in Asia," says Glass. "There is a big demand for trainers and it keeps growing."

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[NickH]

Re: PiperAircraft is back in the training fleet sales busine

It would be interesting to have an inside view. I'd expect Piper to be selling these airplanes significantly cheaper abroad without the US liability issues. The long term effect becomes cheaper training in all those places currently sending their students here.

 

[Inverted25]

Re: PiperAircraft is back in the training fleet sales busine

It would be interesting to have an inside view. I'd expect Piper to be selling these airplanes significantly cheaper abroad without the US liability issues. The long term effect becomes cheaper training in all those places currently sending their students here.

Its not the cost of the airplane that makes it expensive overseas. Its the cost of fuel, users fees, landing fees, ramp fees etc that kill flying overseas. You could give them free airplanes and it would still be cheaper to train here as long as we keep user fees out of our system.
​

 

[swisspilot]

Re: PiperAircraft is back in the training fleet sales busine

Its not the cost of the airplane that makes it expensive overseas. Its the cost of fuel, users fees, landing fees, ramp fees etc that kill flying overseas. You could give them free airplanes and it would still be cheaper to train here as long as we keep user fees out of our system.
​

In most of the places mentioned above it costs about as much as in the US to fly a piper warrior if not less...

In Malaysia you can get a C172 for 180 dollars dual (you pay from take off to landing, no taxi!)
In Indonesia it`s around 150 dollars dual
In Thailand around 180-190 dollars dual

 

[NickH]

Re: PiperAircraft is back in the training fleet sales busine

Its not the cost of the airplane that makes it expensive overseas. Its the cost of fuel, users fees, landing fees, ramp fees etc that kill flying overseas. You could give them free airplanes and it would still be cheaper to train here as long as we keep user fees out of our system.
​

This is very true of Europe, most of all, and there it is mainly a fuel cost. A US gallon of Avgas will run you $11.60 at my local airfield in England. That adds some $80 an hour to the rental cost. Add $15 per landing, and as a result Piper probably sells less than a dozen new airplanes there each year.

However, fuel prices in the regions Piper is targeting are significantly lower ($0.86 a gallon in Brunei (for 97, I couldn't find 100LL quickly)), and the challenges there are a simple lack of infrastructure. These countries don't have hundreds of airports left over from WWII pilot training, and no general aviation culture. As that grows, Piper's market is potentially huge, as is the opportunity for domestic flight training, especially as that fuel isn't threatened by calls for removing lead or contamination with Ethanol.

 

[z987k]

Re: PiperAircraft is back in the training fleet sales busine

In most of the places mentioned above it costs about as much as in the US to fly a piper warrior if not less...

In Malaysia you can get a C172 for 180 dollars dual (you pay from take off to landing, no taxi!)
In Indonesia it`s around 150 dollars dual
In Thailand around 180-190 dollars dual

That is crazy expensive. In the midwest I can get an older 172(who cares) + duel for about 130-140/hr. 100/hr with duel on some cloth covered things. Multiply that 30/40 extra an hour out and you have at least 3k added on top of training.

 

[Douglas]

Re: PiperAircraft is back in the training fleet sales busine

Piper exited the training market?
That's like Kraft getting out of Mac n' cheese.

 

[swisspilot]

Re: PiperAircraft is back in the training fleet sales busine

That is crazy expensive. In the midwest I can get an older 172(who cares) + duel for about 130-140/hr. 100/hr with duel on some cloth covered things. Multiply that 30/40 extra an hour out and you have at least 3k added on top of training.

I rented a 172 with CFI for 90 dollars/hour, a 7 year old C172 with dual 430s in NC!.....but it`s not the norm. All the prices above are at flight academies that are pretty close to what a 141 school looks like in the US.

The hours you need, to get a CPL in those places are less then in the US, in some as low as 150 hours...in those countries you don`t get hired based on how many hours you have either..

 

[soonerpilot06]

Re: PiperAircraft is back in the training fleet sales busine

Would be nice to see FSA invest in new Arrows.

I think they are waiting on the FAA to remove the complex requirement from the Commercial PTS. Then they can just get rid of them.

They need glass of some sort. Students wanting to fly professionally need to be trained on up-to-date technology.

 

[B767]

Re: PiperAircraft is back in the training fleet sales busine

I think they are waiting on the FAA to remove the complex requirement from the Commercial PTS. Then they can just get rid of them.

They need glass of some sort. Students wanting to fly professionally need to be trained on up-to-date technology.

They do. Two C172 G1000s that a European airline "needed" a few years back for glass experience. That airline has since realized that it didn't do much for the students. Now the G1000s get flown once a month, just to keep the oil moving. IMHO, it had to do with the cost difference of flying a Cadet vs. a G1000.

 

[soonerpilot06]

Re: PiperAircraft is back in the training fleet sales busine

They do. Two C172 G1000s that a European airline "needed" a few years back for glass experience. That airline has since realized that it didn't do much for the students. Now the G1000s get flown once a month, just to keep the oil moving. IMHO, it had to do with the cost difference of flying a Cadet vs. a G1000.

They had two back in '06 as well. They were leased. They didn't fly much either. The academy wanted somewhere near $2500 for a "glass transition" course. I think you got only 10 hours in the plane. That didn't pan out well. They eventually sent those planes up to DAB after a tornado on Christmas Day wiped out a bunch the fleet there. The ones they have now sat for six months before HUB arrived. My point is they need either a fleet change or an avionics upgrade in all airplanes. Sooner or later it has to be done.

 

[T56Maniac]

Re: PiperAircraft is back in the training fleet sales busine

They had two back in '06 as well. They were leased. They didn't fly much either. The academy wanted somewhere near $2500 for a "glass transition" course. I think you got only 10 hours in the plane. That didn't pan out well. They eventually sent those planes up to DAB after a tornado on Christmas Day wiped out a bunch the fleet there. The ones they have now sat for six months before HUB arrived. My point is they need either a fleet change or an avionics upgrade in all airplanes. Sooner or later it has to be done.

For FSA to stay competitive .... Yes. They charge premium rates for old airplanes. The entire fleet is anywhere between 10-35 years old.

Why not lease and rotate (a hand full that get used a lot) every 5 years? This would keep customers happy and the avionics would be up-to-date with the industry standard. Why buy and let the Florida weather beat the crap out of the airplanes for the next 30-40 years and expect customers to pay outrages prices for them?

Just throwing that out there to see what everyone thinks......I'm not bashing the establishment, just the old A$$ equipment FSA owns.

 

[T56Maniac]

Re: PiperAircraft is back in the training fleet sales busine

Looks like FSA bought an Arrow from FIT and another warrior, I've heard both are equipped with G430's.