Piper Aerostar crash, or, Don't do stupid things in airplanes.

Murdoughnut said:
I sometimes scoff at this notion that "this could be any of us." Yes, this could be any of us in the sense that we could be a smoking hole in the ground. No, this couldn't be "any of us" in the sense that we could bite it while performing aerobatics close to the ground and beyond what the FAA designates as a safe margin.
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No, that's exactly what I do mean -- it actually could be any of us.

And you prove my point to a T when you say:

Murdoughnut said:
Have I broken FARs before? Sure
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Very few pilots' personality (self image) and airmanship has them saying, "oh yeah, I'm gonna go do something unsafe/illegal/stupid today". In fact, I've never met anyone who is that "that guy". Yet, despite that fact, there are a lot of pilots who are "that guy". It is sort of like that thing where most pilots view themselves as "above average", even though that is statistically impossible. Instances of bad judgment and airmanship are a result of a lot of varied factors that are subtle, insidious, and for many pilots completely ignored (the "it can't happen to me" crowd). I've met a ton of them...and I've even been one myself. I bet if you asked that Aerostar pilot, when he was alive, he would have told you that he wasn't "that guy", either.

What that says is that bad judgment and poor decisionmaking is not some big, black-and-white decision that a pilot just up and intentionally decides on one day. For some folks it might be, but for the vast majority of aviators it is not. Instead, it is a gradual process that sneaks up on them when they are denying it could ever be them, and they are surprised when they look back with the benefit of hindsight and say, "wow, that was stupid...I'll never do that again".

Good airmanship is recognizing it can be you, and doing everything in your power from allowing it to be you.
 
Hacker15e said:
they are surprised when they look back with the benefit of hindsight and say, "wow, that was stupid...I'll never do that again".
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Enough of that for one lifetime, I reckon. That said, you're quite right. Eternal Vigilance and all that. Sure you have to watch the other guy, but you, yourself, bear a bit of monitoring here and there.
 
Hacker15e said:
No, that's exactly what I do mean -- it actually could be any of us.

And you prove my point to a T when you say:



Very few pilots' personality (self image) and airmanship has them saying, "oh yeah, I'm gonna go do something unsafe/illegal/stupid today". In fact, I've never met anyone who is that "that guy". Yet, despite that fact, there are a lot of pilots who are "that guy". It is sort of like that thing where most pilots view themselves as "above average", even though that is statistically impossible. Instances of bad judgment and airmanship are a result of a lot of varied factors that are subtle, insidious, and for many pilots completely ignored (the "it can't happen to me" crowd). I've met a ton of them...and I've even been one myself. I bet if you asked that Aerostar pilot, when he was alive, he would have told you that he wasn't "that guy", either.

What that says is that bad judgment and poor decisionmaking is not some big, black-and-white decision that a pilot just up and intentionally decides on one day. For some folks it might be, but for the vast majority of aviators it is not. Instead, it is a gradual process that sneaks up on them when they are denying it could ever be them, and they are surprised when they look back with the benefit of hindsight and say, "wow, that was stupid...I'll never do that again".

Good airmanship is recognizing it can be you, and doing everything in your power from allowing it to be you.
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The Dunning Kruger effect is particularly apropos to this discussion.
 
Hacker15e said:
Good airmanship is recognizing it can be you, and doing everything in your power from allowing it to be you.
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I've made mistakes in judgement and errors in execution that have placed myself and others at some level of increased risk despite my best intentions. I have failed to recognize an accumulation of factors that individually represented little risk, but collectively made an accident possible, if not likely.

I was ready to hit the LIKE button when I remembered, he was performing hammerhead stalls with a recently purchased Aerostar in a residential area. I'm sure I'm capable of stuffing it in with the best of them, but it's not going to look anything like this .... I'm sure of it, Professor Kingsfield.

(Yes, I did a quick survey of my own stupid pilot tricks before posting.)
 
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Pilot Fighter said:
I was ready to hit the LIKE button when I remembered, he was performing hammerhead stalls with a recently purchased Aerostar. I'm sure I'm capable of stuffing it in with the best of them, but it's not going to look anything like this .... I'm sure of it, Professor Kingsfield.
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I think it's all relative really. Some people say they wont auger it in like this guy, but they'll sneak down past mins. There used to be time when "beating up the patch" with your new airplane wasn't considered such a taboo thing to do... whether it was an old Jenny or Beech 18. There will be a time where people will probably view sneaking past mins as a completely unheard of thing for any pilot to do... yet most of us have done it a time or two. I've been in the whole low altitude aerobatic arena before and what many people don't understand is that you can get just as comfortable doing low altitude aerobatics as you can sneaking down past mins, taking an airplane you knew was slightly over gross, or any other variation that can be traced back to bad decision making that many pilots do or have done. It's completely relative to your pilot environment.

Either way, that controlled flight into terrain will kill you just as fast as the uncontrolled flight into terrain. But by the grace of God, there go I.
 
ryan1234 said:
I think it's all relative really. Some people say they wont auger it in like this guy, but they'll sneak down past mins. There used to be time when "beating up the patch" with your new airplane wasn't considered such a taboo thing to do... whether it was an old Jenny or Beech 18. There will be a time where people will probably view sneaking past mins as a completely unheard of thing for any pilot to do... yet most of us have done it a time or two. I've been in the whole low altitude aerobatic arena before and what many people don't understand is that you can get just as comfortable doing low altitude aerobatics as you can sneaking down past mins, taking an airplane you knew was slightly over gross, or any other variation that can be traced back to bad decision making that many pilots do or have done. It's completely relative to your pilot environment.

Either way, that controlled flight into terrain will kill you just as fast as the uncontrolled flight into terrain. But by the grace of God, there go I.
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Who said any if us are comfortable with "sneaking past minimums?"

To br fair, I wouldn't do aerobatics in an Aerostar or any other non-aerobatic plane. I also wouldn't buzz a residential area. My certificates are too important to me.

"But for the grace of God," is great for unintentional errors or violations. This was a pretty clear, and as far as I'm concerned, inexcusable and intentional, disregard for the FARs, and common sense.

The low altitude aerobatic arena is reserved for those with low altitude cards issued by the FAA. For the rest of us, there are regulations detailing minimum altitude and location for such antics. Those locations don't involve subdivisions or Aerostars.

I don't want to hear that this could happen to anyone. An engine failure, equipment malfunction or freak accident can happen to anyone. Choosing to execute low level aerobatics without low level approval, in a non-aerobatic airplane, over a subdivision is a conscious choice...not subject to chance and bad luck.
 
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U_of_I_Tweak said:
Who said any if us are comfortable with "sneaking past minimums?"

To br fair, I wouldn't do aerobatics in an Aerostar or any other non-aerobatic plane. I also wouldn't buzz a residential.area. My certificates are too important to me.
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Sneaking past minimums or (insert here common FAR violation) was the point. Also, the Aerostar is actually one of the only twins capable of aerobatics (+6G).
 
ryan1234 said:
Sneaking past minimums or (insert here common FAR violation) was the point. Also, the Aerostar is actually one of the only twins capable of aerobatics (+6G).
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If you read my post, I didn't agree that "sneaking past minimums" was acceptable or common.

Second, while I don't have the type certificate data sheet available, I'd be very surprised if the Aerostar was certified in the aerobatic category; regardless of the G tolerances it can survive. Without looking it up, because I'm on my phone, I presume an Aerostar is a normal category airplane. Even if it were certified in the aerobatic category, nothing permits a low level display over a neighborhood.
 
U_of_I_Tweak said:
If you read my post, I didn't agree that "sneaking past minimums" was acceptable or common.

Second, while I don't have the type certificate data sheet available, I'd be very surprised if the Aerostar was certified in the aerobatic category; regardless of the G tolerances it can survive. Without looking it up, because I'm on my phone, I presume an Aerostar is a normal category airplane. Even if it were certified in the aerobatic category, nothing permits a low level display over a neighborhood.
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I think we kind of disconnected a while ago from the point I was trying to make. You seem to have it all figured out, good on ya.
 
ryan1234 said:
I think it's all relative really. I.
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Okay Dr. Chomsky, it's all relative, we get that.

A number of post-crash threads have followed the same trajectory. A pilot makes five mistakes in judgement and crashes. Then, we all agree that we are capable of making one or more of the same mistakes. Then, somebody claims that because everybody is capable of making one or more of the five mistakes, we are just as capable of making all five of the mistakes with the same outcome. If anybody questions this logical leap and rhetorical trick, they are labelled as arrogant and tossed to the Gods of Hubris.

I'll speak for myself. I might break a FAR, but I will not PLAN to break a FAR, and it looks like this guy might have done exactly that.
 
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Pilot Fighter said:
Okay Dr. Chomsky
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My point is this... the path to all of these accidents isn't as simple as saying "well I would never do that, not like him anyways". Call it faulty logic or whatever you'd like... but it can be any one of us at any given time. Why? Because it simply isn't always a black and white call... we can all fall into faulty decision making that ends in death. Call it Chomsky or call it human nature, but we all can be "that guy". Some of us are just more candid about it than others.

Ive seen it in the civilian world and I've seen it in military aviation.
 
ryan1234 said:
I think we kind of disconnected a while ago from the point I was trying to make. You seem to have it all figured out, good on ya.
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I'm happy to learn. The only thing I have figured out with respect to this thread is that I'm not qualified for low level aerobatics.

I honestly welcome you to clarify your point. Sometimes the interwebs make it difficult to comprehend ones point.

I think my point is that most professionals don't view busting minimums as acceptable, and therefore your correlation of busting minimums to other willful violations aren't an apples to apple comparison.
 
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