Pinnacle Purchases Colgan Air

[pilot602]

You have been to two places already, no?

Because the first one is about two months from going tango uniform and I saw the writing on the wall. Consequnetly I now have over 350 pilots under me on the list I now live on and it looks as if there will be even more shortly ... timing, luck and a little skepticism can go a long way in this industry.

The point is, management can can tell you everything you want to hear while very quietly manuevering the company to be paired down, moved, rearranged or even sold ...

 

[Seggy]

Well Seggy, I never though Colgan was bad enough to have to take out 17K in loans, but I guess things are worse than you say they are.

Do you have a flight school loan to take care of?

No matter WHAT place I was at I would have needed to take out a loan to make it through the first two years. New Jersey is expensive. If you did a side by side comparison of regionals and pay/work rules you would see Colgan is better than a lot out there.

Seriously dude what the heck do you have against Colgan?

 

[scramjet]

whoa!

 

[SmitteyB]

No matter WHAT place I was at I would have needed to take out a loan to make it through the first two years. New Jersey is expensive. If you did a side by side comparison of regionals and pay/work rules you would see Colgan is better than a lot out there.

Seriously dude what the heck do you have against Colgan?

No beef with CJC whatsoever. They're one of my first choices. Being from ITH/BGM/SYR area, I used to be obsessed with them.

Let's put it this way...My last day of high school we had to write on a peice of paper where we would like to be in 10 years. I wrote "Captain on a Saab 340 for Colgan Air based out of Ithaca." Now tell me I have something against them. Other than crappy pay, which isn't their fault.

I was under the impression you were ALB based and you lived in ALB, and I know you can get a roomate and share bills/rent for under 400 bucks and still make ends meet.

But you obviously live in the Metro NY area. It's expensive, I won't argue there. I'm sorry if my post came across cynical, it wasn't intended to, honest.

 

[Seggy]

No beef with CJC whatsoever. They're one of my first choices. Being from ITH/BGM/SYR area, I used to be obsessed with them.

Let's put it this way...My last day of high school we had to write on a peice of paper where we would like to be in 10 years. I wrote "Captain on a Saab 340 for Colgan Air based out of Ithaca." Now tell me I have something against them. Other than crappy pay, which isn't their fault.

I was under the impression you were ALB based and you lived in ALB, and I know you can get a roomate and share bills/rent for under 400 bucks and still make ends meet.

But you obviously live in the Metro NY area. It's expensive, I won't argue there. I'm sorry if my post came across cynical, it wasn't intended to, honest.

Thanks for clearing that up.

You see I have a place in New Jersey AND Albany, New York. My housing costs are about $500.00 for both places. That isn't bad, two places for five hundred everything included, its actually a steal. But it costs money to drive between the two, stocking both places with food, etc., it adds up.

 

[Captain_Bob]

There will be growth for both sides. Other than that...

PCL = "foot in door" for CAL flying now... I'd imagine that will be the first place the Q400's go.

 

[stuckingfk]

There's a former Colgan pilot in Lear 45 Initial with me.

He was just hired at FlexJet and is going through ground now.

 

[dingo222]

PCL = "foot in door" for CAL flying now... I'd imagine that will be the first place the Q400's go.

I agree. I think part of our deal with CAL was that we'd get 70 seaters in the future. OUr routes for United and US won't support a 70 seater. THey are just too short. The colgan's wanted the 70 seater and had bid on that flying earlier, but at 20 mil a pop for a q400, just couldn't pull it off. I think they said yesterday that they are also looking at the atr-72/500 but they are running 14 mil each. So the larger t-prop wouldn't be taking flying from PCL. THey may even put a few on the PCL cert and see how they do. Nobody on the NW side is flying the things, and they may do pretty well. THose on the NW side would be flown by PCL pilots. I think the big concern with 70 seat t-props right now is what sort of pay will we get to fly them. I think everyone knows that they will give us about the same as what pcl pilots are getting for the 50 seat jet. THat's a big concern for our senior pilots. Nobody wants to be part of that, but when the time comes I wonder how many will bypass the opportunity.

 

[sigpilot]

I haven't had internet since the news broke and its been killing me. I dont know what to say about any of this. I would like to see ALPA come in so the two groups can work together b/c none of us deserve to be labeled the bad guy. Nobody asked for this, but we have to make the best of it I suppose.

 

[wheelsup]

My housing costs are about $500.00 for both places. That isn't bad, two places for five hundred everything included, its actually a steal.

How many roommates do you have, and if none, are you packing heat ?

On a side note, I met a Colgan guy the other day. He says the Pinnacle guys have been treating him like crap ever since this announcement. He's also pissed because he said he was lied to during the interview.

 

[SmitteyB]

I agree. I think part of our deal with CAL was that we'd get 70 seaters in the future. OUr routes for United and US won't support a 70 seater. THey are just too short. The colgan's wanted the 70 seater and had bid on that flying earlier, but at 20 mil a pop for a q400, just couldn't pull it off. I think they said yesterday that they are also looking at the atr-72/500 but they are running 14 mil each. So the larger t-prop wouldn't be taking flying from PCL. THey may even put a few on the PCL cert and see how they do. Nobody on the NW side is flying the things, and they may do pretty well. THose on the NW side would be flown by PCL pilots. I think the big concern with 70 seat t-props right now is what sort of pay will we get to fly them. I think everyone knows that they will give us about the same as what pcl pilots are getting for the 50 seat jet. THat's a big concern for our senior pilots. Nobody wants to be part of that, but when the time comes I wonder how many will bypass the opportunity.

With ASA phasing out the ATR, maybe you can convince SkyWest to give you a deal on them...

 

[Heath]

Bottom line is this:

On the Beech side we are actually above industry average when it comes to pay both on Captain and First Officer side. Our work rules in terms of pay credits, reserve time, and other extras that we have are fair to us as far as I am concerned. For January I will probably have a 70 hour block with 102 hour pay credit. But, it is either feast or famine.

On the Saab, well in the past most of the guys have upgraded in about 16 months. I think you will upgrade sooner rather than later Heath, my guess is within five months. We are going to be growing now that we have some capital.

Regardless the industry does stink when it comes to pay across the board. I am VERY interested to see what the larger aircraft payscale will be.

Bottom line is also this:

I had to take out $17,000 in loans the past year and a half to live. I have $7,000 left so I need to make more than I am now. I put in substitute teaching papers in today so I plan on doing that to make some more cash, but I need to make more at my real job.

I wish I shared your view. I ran some numbers from the seniority list and I think I'm at least a year from upgrade!

As far as pay goes, I did a comparison and averaged out yearly pay on all turboprop operators, 1900 operators, and Saab operators. Strictly looking at hourly wages, Colgan was about $1.50 higher than average on the 1900, 3.50 lower than the average for the saab. But that's just comparing hourly. When you factor in no per diem for day trips and standups, no duty rigs, etc, we're making significantly less.

Personally, I hope ALPA starts a union vote to combine us with PCL pilots.

 

[dingo222]

I wish I shared your view. I ran some numbers from the seniority list and I think I'm at least a year from upgrade!

As far as pay goes, I did a comparison and averaged out yearly pay on all turboprop operators, 1900 operators, and Saab operators. Strictly looking at hourly wages, Colgan was about $1.50 higher than average on the 1900, 3.50 lower than the average for the saab. But that's just comparing hourly. When you factor in no per diem for day trips and standups, no duty rigs, etc, we're making significantly less.

Personally, I hope ALPA starts a union vote to combine us with PCL pilots.

Heath,

Where are you getting these numbers? APC shows that we are pretty much in the middle for straight pay. Add in the per diem and such, and we are behind. The catch is that if you want to fly a dash for PDT, or a saab for eagle or mesaba, you are looking at eternity for upgrade. The only difference would be with Skywest, on the bro. We all knew the pay when we came to colgan.

I personally think a union of some sort will eventually start here. It won't happen tomorrow, and will probably happen after you and I both upgrade. PCL has a union, and a contract, and they have still been waiting for 3 years to get a raise. No matter who we bring in i.e ALPA, teamsters, in-house, Screen Actors Guild etc, Colgan saab pilots will not get a raise. THey will not pay us more to fly a 34 seat t-prop than a PCL pilot makes on a 50 seat jet. Period.

Our days of being isolated from the rest of the industry are about to end. We still have it pretty good in most respects compared to PCL pilots. We will be fighting to protect that either sooner or later. If you don't mind, what's your Sen #? You can pm it to me if you want. You and I can't be too far apart in senority. I think upgrade will come quicker than we exect. FO's are already bailing out, and more may follow after this buyout. If we add 3 saabs, that's 15 more captains that we will need. If we add bigger planes, say 3, thats 15 more captains and 15 more FO's. Those FO's may come from the saab, moving you up, they may be displaced hondo pilots like seggy, or new hires. THat has yet to be determined.

Dude, I hear ya. Rocketman and I are sucking on second year pay also, and it's tough to say the least. I think upgrade will come quicker than most of us have come to expect, and it will come before all of the union, and 70 seater discussions have finished. J

 

[sigpilot]

Does this mean our one year training contracts are now void since it was originally with Colgan Air Inc.???

 

[kellwolf]

I'd like to stay optomistic on this one, but sometimes it's hard. Why? Management here isn't so good at following through on what they say. They say Colgan's rates are industry standard. Guess what? They say the SAME thing about our rates at Pinnacle, and it only takes about 2 minutes and a side by side comparison on APC to see that we're lower than most guys out there.

So far we've heard "if you don't sign this "non-concessionary" contract, Mesaba is gonna get the -900s." That didn't work, so they went with "if you don't sign, we can't get an ASA with NWA." Well, they held out as long as they could on THAT one, and had to announce it before the end of the year. So, then we get "if we give you what you want, we'll bankrupt the company." Then they go out and spend $20 million on another airline. I'm really hoping both sides grow, but I'm expecting any day now to hear "If you don't sign the contract, we're gonna give the flying to Colgan." I don't want EITHER pilot group in that situation.

A little history lesson on our contract negotions. The company has been trying to get our scope relaxed so they could start up another cert to get flying from other carriers. The carrot dangled was "We need the relief, but you can keep all the NWA flying on your side, and any other flying we get will be flown by the second cert." Well, they've been having trouble with the second cert, so they buy Colgan. Conveniently, Colgan has built-in agreements with other airlines. If the decide to, they could go with their orginal plan, keep the NWA flying at Pinnacle and have Colgan as the "second cert" to fly everything else. If that's the case, I see very little growth on the 9E side. In fact, I'm guessing NWA is gonna grow their new purchase before they give us new planes.

I'm still hopeful, but nearly a year of management beat-downs over here has kinda tarnished my glass that's half full.....

 

[Cruise]

Does this mean our one year training contracts are now void since it was originally with Colgan Air Inc.???

My guess is NO!

 

[Bandit_Driver]

any mention of how the Pilot lists are going to be merged or are they going to keep them seperate?

 

[kellwolf]

any mention of how the Pilot lists are going to be merged or are they going to keep them seperate?

Supposedly separate, but things are subject to change from day to day. It's gonna be interesting for both sides, IMO.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I'd like to stay optomistic on this one, but sometimes it's hard. Why? Management here isn't so good at following through on what they say. They say Colgan's rates are industry standard. Guess what? They say the SAME thing about our rates at Pinnacle, and it only takes about 2 minutes and a side by side comparison on APC to see that we're lower than most guys out there.

So far we've heard "if you don't sign this "non-concessionary" contract, Mesaba is gonna get the -900s." That didn't work, so they went with "if you don't sign, we can't get an ASA with NWA." Well, they held out as long as they could on THAT one, and had to announce it before the end of the year. So, then we get "if we give you what you want, we'll bankrupt the company." Then they go out and spend $20 million on another airline. I'm really hoping both sides grow, but I'm expecting any day now to hear "If you don't sign the contract, we're gonna give the flying to Colgan." I don't want EITHER pilot group in that situation.

A little history lesson on our contract negotions. The company has been trying to get our scope relaxed so they could start up another cert to get flying from other carriers. The carrot dangled was "We need the relief, but you can keep all the NWA flying on your side, and any other flying we get will be flown by the second cert." Well, they've been having trouble with the second cert, so they buy Colgan. Conveniently, Colgan has built-in agreements with other airlines. If the decide to, they could go with their orginal plan, keep the NWA flying at Pinnacle and have Colgan as the "second cert" to fly everything else. If that's the case, I see very little growth on the 9E side. In fact, I'm guessing NWA is gonna grow their new purchase before they give us new planes.

I'm still hopeful, but nearly a year of management beat-downs over here has kinda tarnished my glass that's half full.....

kell,


What I'd like to know is how can PNCL management threaten to remove 15 CRJs (at a rate of 3/month) after March 31 if a contract isn't reached, GIVEN the fact that management has pretty much refused to meet and negotiate (negotiations are stalled right now is my understanding)?

Any updates on that end?

 

[kellwolf]

kell,


What I'd like to know is how can PNCL management threaten to remove 15 CRJs (at a rate of 3/month) after March 31 if a contract isn't reached, GIVEN the fact that management has pretty much refused to meet and negotiate (negotiations are stalled right now is my understanding)?

Any updates on that end?

They can hold that over our heads b/c it's actually in the agreement with NWA. If we haven't signed a contract by March 31st, NWA has the OPTION to remove those planes. Our management has no say in if we lose the planes. They can cry "we'll lose the 15 planes if you don't sign the contract." But, you're right. We've been ready to negotiate for months. Management has been the one dragging their feet. Now we find out they've been busier signing an agreement with NWA (which they said couldn't be done without a contract) and buying another airline (which they said we were sort on funds). Rumor has it the FAs got a TA over the weekend on their new contract, so hopefully something will happen soon. For the past few months management has been saying something to the effect of "Well, we want a response on our current offer." They've gotten the same response numerous times, and it's been "No" every time. I guess they think if they keep asking the same question, they might eventually get a different answer....