jynxyjoe
Queso King
OH! So it IS our fault. I thought you were blaming the company still.
Pinacolaba SLI
- Thread starter jynxyjoe
- Start date
OH! So it IS our fault. I thought you were blaming the company still.
The only thing I blame Mesaba for is going back on something that was agreed to when these seniority list talks started. I am also not going to hold something against a group that is looking out for the best interests of its pilots. All I'm saying is that you really can't blame the 9E guys on taking a couple extra days to submit a list when the past week could have been completely avoided. I never ONCE got on here and spoke ill about Mesaba and the dispute.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Quick quesstions:
- By challenge the doh do you mean the ~140 (or 142) that were incorrect and you fixed it?
- Or the second time when had active pilots missing from the Seniority list (which is baffling)?
- Or this LOA 2 thing from the JCBA which was apparently was disputed because of a whole column missing on the SL (Pinnacle DOH) and it was replaced with John's interpretation of the JCBA LOA 2?
I think the entire "battle" revolves around this LOA 2 thing judging from Higney's responses on some of the forums, which I'm referring to one from probably a week ago. At first I couldn't understand why he was phrasing his words so carefully until I called and asked our union about it. For those of you who have not called your reps go ahead and they can either agree or dismiss this but here's the gist.
Everyone signed the JCBA and that included the LOA's. LOA 2's final language was missing some language the company wanted and pilots wanted with regard to respecting a TRUE DOH for pass privileges (only pass privileges). View LOA 2 today and that is missing. Everyone signed it including the company, however, the rough draft everyone agreed to had the language and there's plenty of witnesses and notes regarding it. Fortunately/Unfortunately depending on the person AND situation these sort of things (errors and omitted language) can be worked out later. Long story short, the language will go back in.
Read this language:
Pretty cool hu? I mean it's in the JCBA. Everyone signed it. Higney and everyone at Pinnacle is correct. Apparently it can't stay that way and the lawyers say so. Apparently Bloch agrees with the company on that one too. You can't change the dates just because someone omitted the language. Wonder how much we get to pay the lawyers now to fix that goof up? Maybe it'll be a freebie!
JH used the language to his and everyone at Pinnacle's benefit. Cool, way to go! Maybe if everyone wasn't all over the lists because of the screw ups regarding misprints on his end, it may have even gone through. It's tough for ME to agree that with that line of reasoning because there was a whole flipping column missing. It's not as though everyone didn't have the agreed upon list. There were some changes for hiring as you said, but that wasn't at issue. The issue is clear in those 3 questions above.
I've run a long way around the bush and I fee like I may be ranting a little. Which one of the "disputes" are you referring to? Are you guys going to be blaming us forever because John wasn't crafty enough to slide the language in under Pinnacles nose?
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Normally MikeD just knocks my reputation points down and then tells me not to worry about it
Maybe him and Darrenf can come on down and illustrate to me what an idiot I am. (yes I am purposefully opening myself up for the jokes, it's fine)Wuv you all so so much!
Tram
Well-Known Member
Ohh yeh!
Man, the pay sucked but that was a fun job.In terms of simplicity and "autopilot" like flight characteristics? You're right.
CEWLGUY
Well-Known Member
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
The official Mesaba dispute was only regarding point #3 above, the adjustment of DOH to seniority date (class) DOH. The initial Mesaba dispute made no mention of any 9E pilots missing from the list. The only thing they got wrapped around the wheel with was the movement of our DOH from sim date to class date, which gained us on average 6 weeks. But this was only in line with what XJ and 9L already had: initial pilot class date as DOH.
And I'm confused by what you mean regarding LOA #2 Letter V. It is pretty obvious, and quite clear, that Pinnacle pilots are to have an adjustment for their date of hire to the first day they began training, meaning class date. Where is your confusion coming from? What are you trying to imply?
Absolutely not. The whole reason for LOA #2 V. was to fix our DOH to what it is industry-wide, to ensure we get proper footing for a fair integration. JH did not use any language to his benefit. He did simply what was agreed upon in contract negotiations with the company, and something that was signed off by all 3 union groups.
From our last union update:
"As most are aware, the Decision and Award from Arbitrator Bloch has been delayed due to a dispute raised by one of the merger committees. The dispute centers on the Date of Hire data point that is inserted in the seniority list. At this point Mr. Bloch is considering the dispute. He has not ruled whether he will accept a dispute that we feel has been raised after closing arguments were presented."
Mesaba did not want us to use our class date as our DOH, rather our checkride date that was used under the old agreement. When we first submitted seniority lists, we had two dates on each name, classdate and checkride date. After the JCBA was signed with the language that was posted earlier, the company removed the checkride date and stuck with the class date as per the new contract. Mesaba disputed this saying they never agreed to let Pinnacle use this date.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Why do I have this feeling you are being purposefully dense? Oh that's right, it's you. I don't know how else to say this. So I guess I'll just say it again. I fear I can't help you CC. The Mesaba folks say that part of the LOA, the section V, was referring to pass benefits. Yup everyone signed that final language, because we didn't read it close enough I imagine, but the language was changed from it's original intent. Now, IF you guys get a real DOH off that language then good for you. Our guys were told by the lawyers that the language is an error, that it was miscopied from notes and drafts signed, and that it has to be corrected. This language correction was presented to me as a foregone conclusion. Now, if you have different information, fine. Honestly, I think a lot of us would have a good laugh if you guys got your DOH off this little misprint. I know I'm laughing about it, have been ever since I heard the explanation.
Is it story time with Joey? OMG it is. OK CC, get up on Grandaddies knee. Here's an example from a while back, which there are many, but this is the funniest. We have a 4 hour min day (I know you are still learning this one), and the final signed language (back in 06, I think jetu was still operating back then) made it sound like that 4 hour day applied to each calendar day. So when you picked up a high speed, you didn't get 6 hours you got 12 (8*1.5)! Holy crap were high speeds popular all the sudden. Plenty of pilots got paid the 12 credit hours, the company complained and grieved it, and we drug our feet finally the company got it corrected. When you create something like a contract there are notes, witnesses, and draft processes that explain thoroughly where the compromises come in and intent of the language. Obviously the language was changed to what the company intended and a bunch of our guys made bank off their screwup, but we didn't get to keep it. Sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring the lawyers doesn't solve anything.
Obviously Pinnacle likes the way the language is currently written, I don't blame them for using it. Pinnacle pilots have a dog in this fight with the LOA, ok, but Bloch has stated exactly what he wants in the list. Just do what Bloch wants and move forward. If you guys can get a 2-7 month bump after the fact with longevity and vacation and DOH or whatever fine. Pinnacle says they are doing what bloch wants now. We'll see tomorrow I suppose.
For my money, 2-7 months jump for all you guys is a silly thing to worry about. I have no problem bringing things in line with our list, it's a wrong that should be corrected. The union guys I've talked to have unanimously expressed sympathy towards the Pinnacle guys and I think they agree with them, even if they avoid a direct question. The line pilots I've spoke to are concerned if we leave the pinnacle list the way the company wants it (and you guys agreed to upon working here) it opens the door for doing something that inane years down the line. For most of these guys, they do believe they will be here for many years to come, so they are very concerned about how each pilot is treated and how it may effect them 5-10 years down the line.
I've said it before, I'll say it again, who cares about 2 months for most guys and 7 months for a couple others. WHO CARES? Just throw them a bone. I'd really love to see how much of a wrench this throws in the works, I can't imagine it's much of anything. I'm just monday quarterbacking though, I wasn't there and this stuff was decided a long time ago. Also, I just get the verbal cliffnotes. Call your own reps, let me know what their position is.
I find it amazing we all have to read sage leaves from our reps after the fact and try and remember it for the online farce later. Put the XJ MEC on one phone, 9E on the other, and we'll all listen in on the conference call on mute. XJ MEC doesn't care either way, he's in the flow. I imagine the new 9E guy isn't far away from leaving either. It would be sad if 3 years down the line we are all trying to rewrite history.
Phht. I'm ranting. Anyone else wanna turn?
jynxyjoe
Queso King
I'll post this up via email see if I can get a response. I'm curious if there is a difference between the two groups on what they consider a "dispute". It seems like we are all moving forward with or without a "dispute" and Mesaba guys say the only thing they are "disputing" is the errors in the list from poor upkeep. Let me see if anyone will comment on the other side of this equation on the phone and see what they say.
I know Mesaba guys feel like every time they offer to help or ask a question they get barked at or yelled at. Does anyone else feel like XJ and 9E have given up communicating with each other and all of us are passing notes back and forth?
higney85
Property of Scheduling
All 3 sides agreed to NOT use outside council. So if legal action comes up their will be a bigger mess to deal with first. Bloch has all the info, let's allow him to work. He has an entire business day for what should be a "drop and fill" process to whatever method he already decided upon.
All we can do is sit back and wait.
All we can do is sit back and wait.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
Legally you can't use ALPA council to go after another ALPA group (trust me, we tried here when USAPA was still ALPA) so at that point you are limited to just what the arbitrator says. Interestingly enough, from past history, I would guess Bloch doesn't have the authority in the current dispute (and I'm using the term as a technical term, not as a catch-all) to decide what the DOH for a 9E pilot is. His jurisdiction pertains to the SLI so he may not be able to "reach back" and modify something in a contract 9E had before the JCBA unless it is specifically mentioned therein. I haven't read the actual wording so I have no idea, but I've heard people say it specifically mentions non rev only while others say it covers everything. That *should* be the crux of the issue.
Interesting times. Somebody(s) are going to be unhappy at the end. Just the way mergers work.
Tram
Well-Known Member
Well of course, for your money it's silly..
For my money, it's not silly..
When you say "and you guys agreed to upon working here" - who are you talking to? Are you saying a 9E guy should sit back and be totally ok with being blended into the "trifecta" of regionals while allowing a guy who started at essentially the same time to get some seniority on him? 9E guys agreed to it because we had no idea we'd be merging with anyone..
<--- this guy.
Put the XJ MEC on one phone, 9E on the other, and we'll all listen in on the conference call on mute. XJ MEC doesn't care either way, he's in the flow. I imagine the new 9E guy isn't far away from leaving either. It would be sad if 3 years down the line we are all trying to rewrite history.
[/QUOTE]
The simple answer to that is:
XJ is trying to screw 9E and Colgan..
9E is trying to screw XJ and Colgan..
Colgan is trying to screw XJ and 9E..
Maybe not directly, but indirectly, they should all be trying to get the best deal for their pilot group..
Don't forget, Mesaba also bought us, according to their MEC..
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
This is the written official statement of the LOA #2, Letter V:
V. Pinnacle Pilots’ Date of Hire Correction
A Pinnacle Pilot who is hired prior to February 18, 2011 shall have his date of hire adjusted to the first day such Pilot commenced training, however, the pilot’s longevity date shall not be adjusted.
That is IT. Nothing more, nothing less. Our goal was to get the company to adjust our DOH from sim date to class date to gain fairness in seniority integration. Company awarded our request. We then asked for longevity credit too, meaning get our pay raise, vacation accrual, sick time, etc, to move from accruing at the sim date of hire to the class date of hire. They REFUSED! So we have our sim date hire date changed to class date, but no longevity.
The Mesaba brainwash team would have you believe that, *somehow*, the "original" intent was only to adust the date for pass benefit priviledges only. That is the biggest bunch of BS ever. We, quite frankly, could care less about our date used for travel bennies. The travel beniies suck as it is. The original intent was ALWAYS to get our sim date hire adjusted to class date, to gain us fair footing on integration. Do not let the Mesaba lie machine deceive you otherwise!
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Well like i said above, I say just give the 2-7 months to you to be fair. My concern would be, obviously I've said this before, that the basis for this change would be on miscopied language on an LOA. You're right it's not my money, I really don't care, and if you guys win on the DOH good for you. If the LOA info that I have is 100% completely false, as CC (sorry CC I'm not going to quote your whole post but you should at least know our guys say you are 100% completely false. I have a feeling both sides are calling each other liars as a knee jerk reaction but who knows. It seems like every day we get more and more info) has said, then you guys should keep fighting. Screw it, it's 2 - 7 months, give it to Pinnacle or don't it's not my money. If that LOA is what WAS agreed to, then you better damn well get that seniority jump. Everyone on my side of the isle says that's bogus and that language in the LOA was a mistake and it was addressing ONLY pass benefits (which is an "ok" compromise I suppose :shrug
. Tram I think you are asking my position on this quote "and you guys agreed to upon working here". I didn't say that very well, I should have said Pinnacle not here. You were hired, got your date after the PC and life continued for anywhere from 1-20 years. Now the merger is coming together and you'd like it put down the correct way, the same way as everyone else, the way we have it already. I think it's been brought up multiple times online, but certainly in talking to pilots on the line, that Pinnacles way was fine for them for years, why change it now? I think the answer for why to change it is, "it opens the door for doing something that inane years down the line." Some of us are going to be around for another 5 years and "so they are very concerned about how each pilot is treated and how it may effect them 5-10 years down the line". What if 5 years down the road Pinnacle management reinterprets the hiring under pinnacle to "be the way it used to be". I don't know the reality of that happening, but it's a question I have, WHY leave anyone on the list with this funky hire dates when we aren't going to use them anymore and we all agree it's a stupid way to define DOH? I'm writing a lot here in a hurry, is my position coming through at all or am I just talking in circles? I'm hoping I'm making sense.
Did our MEC honestly say that we bought Pinnacle? Was that something written down or just someone said Nagel said that? He'd be about the only one at the company that believes that, maybe the flow to Delta gave him one too many night parties. I like Nagel, I like kidding him, he's a bulldog and he's smarter than me, and I have a hard time believing he'd say that unless he was making a joke or that quote is parsed from something he wrote.
As far as who is screwing who, it does seem like right now XJ and Pinnacle aren't talking, but the union guys I talk to have issues with certain people, JH, but they don't have any argument with Pinnacle. The LOA mistake is a good catch, run with it, but why mess around with it now when Bloch's going to issue the list and we can move forward. It's not like this thing is going to have ANYTHING to do with DOH if you believe the Pinnacle reps. No one has done DOH in like 20 years right?
Maybe I'm missing something, I don't know, I think this conversation would be a lot easier in person because I'm getting wrist cramps and I'm doing as much editing I can to make this readable, but I gotta tell you I don't think it's working. It seems like CC is either misreading my stuff on purpose or accident, and Tram it seems like you think I'm saying eff the Pinnacle pilots LOA thing. I'm trying to make clear it's not my decision, and if you guys somehow get it (and my info on the LOA is wrong) then yee-haw. Screw Pinnacle (company), make them pay you.