Pilots who are afraid of the airplane

When I first started flying lessons, I was not used to the sensations one feels when doing steep turns, stalls, etc. Up to that point I had only ever flown in airliners. It took me several lessons to get past the fear of those sensations, and start enjoying them. It probably didn't help that my instructor spun the airplane on my third lesson...well, started a spin anyway :-)
 
I'm pretty amazed at how some of you do it. Don't get me wrong I love flying, but sometimes man I am nervous as hell. Rather should I say only during approach and landings, something about being that low in altitude and hearing the engines change pitch and bounce around a bit on turns and what not, makes me a little nervous lol.

Perhaps I have watched too much Air Crash Investigation... and when it comes to it I know the odds are so ridiculously slim and that pilots are not only great at what they do, but they want to go home to their families too.
 
dasleben said:
Reminds me of the guys (thankfully, few and far between) who put in full aileron input at the start of a crosswind takeoff as if it's a 172. Just no clue that there are roll spoilers out there.
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On that same token, on the -200, there was no shortage of guys who on a cross wind landing would put the correction in for the ailerons, but then in a very FAST motion, go *nearly* full in and full back on the yoke in a repetitive motion over and over again. Not even realizing the action of one hasn't even occurred and the reversal is already ordered, and then again and again. It's a great way to end up in a pilot-induced-oscillation incident/accident.
 
ppragman said:
she'll do whatever you tell her to do.
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Guess you've never flown an airplane with some adverse handling characteristics.

Sometimes when you make your control inputs in a jet like the Eagle, the airplane does whatever it damn well pleases. Here's one such thing, which is called the "Bitburg Roll":

http://elementsofpower.blogspot.ae/2012/11/the-f-35-what-will-happen-while.html
Operation and test has shown that aerodynamic performance can and will remain unpredictable to any exactness when aircraft are operated in regions where non-linear (the definition of ‘turbulent’) airflow occurs.
Click to expand...

The important point, especially in relation to the topic of this thread, is that the antidote to these types of nasty airplane habits is knowing they exist, and training up to the performance limits where those things exist.

If you know you can take the airplane up to that limit, and not go beyond it, and the airplane acts exactly as it should, it takes away the fear of such adverse characteristics.

Under the thought processes of some folks who cater to the "the most conservative option is always the best option" belief, they'd simply never go explore that area in the first place.
 
Honestly, I blame homogenized, bland, minimum cost (for the provider, not you), flight training that has completely emphasized the wrong things.

I always get a chuckle out of the emphasis on "glass experience". Really? Navigating with glass, FMS and whatever other wizzbang toys is about the easiest thing to do in an airplane. ANY competent pilot can master the basics in a few hours by futzing around with a PC sim and the manual. 20 hours on the line, and you should have it down pat.

Its the FUNDAMENTALS hiding behind the glass that is the trick. That's the part that gets shortchanged these days, because the people who don't fly think that automation is the answer to everything, and real flying is an expense to be mitigated. Pilots who don't understand the fundamentals of what they are doing are insecure, nervous people, and it stinks to be around them.

If I had my way, you'd do your private in a Champ with no gyros, and cross countries with nothing but a chart and a stopwatch.

I'd make them do the IFR steam gauges. They teach the fundamentals of picturing in your head (the place it matters) what you want the airplane to do, and how to get it there.

I wouldn't let students near glass until the VERY end of the program.

Richman
 
Recently I had a rental checkout with a CFII with close to 4000 hours all as an SEL instructor (yes that is four thousand hours). This person is well known around the local pilot community and people either love or hate this individual. The FBO I rent at requires a check out with an instructor every 90 days. It's over 6 months since I flew with them (I've been flying for work but not the local FBO) so I was due if I wanted to rent solo from them.

We took a very short hop in a 172. As I was climbing out to pattern altitude and getting ready to turn crosswind, I pulled a small amount of power to keep from going too fast in the downwind and for noise abatement. (we are talking from 2500 RPM to 2350) The CFII immediately reaches up and firewalls the throttle telling me to keep it full power. So I put in a bunch of trim to keep us level at pattern atltitude. Turning crosswind, the CFII tells me no more than 20 degrees of bank. I asked why and was told that was what the Chief instructor had said. Using only 20 degrees of bank by the time I was able to make my turn crosswind at the speed I was going we were way outside the pattern and if the engine had quit I would never have made the runway.

Coming up on the turn to base we've slowed down enough for me to start lowering first notch of flaps, the airspeed indicator was showing maybe 90 knots or so. I know pretty fast for the downwind but the 4000 hour CFII wants me to keep the speed up. So I put in the first notch of flaps. Got to get this race horse slowed down. The CFII panics and says we never put in flaps above 80 knots. White arc begins at 100 knots and the POH says the same. I point this out to the CFII and I am told the head of maintenance says never above 80 knots because the aircraft is old. True, it's a 1969 Cessna. So I hold off on the flaps, can do the approach without them. We start the turn to base and in the turn we are under 80 knots so I start to lower flaps to 10 degrees. The close to 4000 hour CFII again reaches up quickly to stop me from lower the flaps. Telling me don't lower the flaps in a turn.

At this point I am pretty sure the CFII is nuts. And say either you can fly the aircraft or I can. And take my hands of the controls. We are stable and trimmed so its not like we are going to fall out of the sky. The CFII seems to calm down at this point and says tells me to fly. We've passed the turn to final so I have to do a bit more than 20 degrees to get on center line (might have hit 45 degrees at one point). CFII doesn't say anything until touch down which is smooth as glass. The CFII says out loud "really nice landing!".

As I get ready to add power for go around #2 (three are required for 90 day renewal) the near 4000 hour CFII points out the windsock which shows the wind straight down the runway and it isn't full erect (giggity). I am guessing the winds to be around 10 to 12 knots, AND STRAIGHT DOWN THE RUNWAY! The near 4000 hour CFII is uncomfortable with the winds being that high and pulls the power on me. I turn off the runway at the next available taxi way and the 4000 hour CFII tells me that we have a microburst coming in (it was raining that day off and on but showery) and claims the windsock is a 15-18 MPH (?) sock and it looked like it was fully extended. I didn't see anything that lead me to believe we had a thunderstorm in the area or a microburst. I did see some showery preceip south of the field. But I was happy to get this over with.

Now I am also a CFII, I don't have 4000 hours but I've been flying on a commercial fixed wing rating for 10 or so years. The 4000 hour CFII knows this. Yet I felt like I was a pre solo student. I point this out to the CFII and the 4000 hour CFII said I did great and was happy to sign me off for my 90 day check out.

I flew with the chief pilot a few days later and he said he never said to limit flap use under 80 knots and certainly didn't tell anyone to limit turns to no more than 20 degrees in the pattern. He didn't understand the logic behind that request as you could not make a proper pattern with only 20 degree turns.

I really like this CFII but clearly they were afraid of the aircraft (or me). I can't imagine being a pre solo student having to learn from this individual. If you as a CFII (especially at close to 4000 hours) are still afraid of the aircraft, you need to find something else to do. You're not doing your students any favors. Now I have no idea if this 4000 hour CFII only does that with me but why would they? And how do you get to 4000 hours with fear like that????

The funny thing is I've been in a couple of times since then and the near 4000 hour CFII has avoided me like the plague. Doesn't even acknowledge my greetings.
 
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Hacker15e said:
Guess you've never flown an airplane with some adverse handling characteristics.

Sometimes when you make your control inputs in a jet like the Eagle, the airplane does whatever it damn well pleases. Here's one such thing, which is called the "Bitburg Roll":

http://elementsofpower.blogspot.ae/2012/11/the-f-35-what-will-happen-while.html


The important point, especially in relation to the topic of this thread, is that the antidote to these types of nasty airplane habits is knowing they exist, and training up to the performance limits where those things exist.

If you know you can take the airplane up to that limit, and not go beyond it, and the airplane acts exactly as it should, it takes away the fear of such adverse characteristics.

Under the thought processes of some folks who cater to the "the most conservative option is always the best option" belief, they'd simply never go explore that area in the first place.
Click to expand...
These tendencies, largely, are designed out of transport category airplanes, and for damned good reasons I might add. None of this is an argument against training the edge of the envelope and abnormal flight attitudes etc., but for the most part, we don't have those problems on airplanes designed for subsonic summer fun.

The system, at least for transport, is designed upon an average pilot on an average day in an average airplane canning an engine at V1 and not hitting the orphanage after doing an average job of the single-engine departure.
 
av8tr1 said:
Recently I had a rental checkout with a CFII with close to 4000 hours all as an SEL instructor (yes that is four thousand hours). This person is well known around the local pilot community and people either love or hate this individual. The FBO I rent at requires a check out with an instructor every 90 days. It's over 6 months since I flew with them (I've been flying for work but not the local FBO) so I was due if I wanted to rent solo from them.

We took a very short hop in a 172. As I was climbing out to pattern altitude and getting ready to turn crosswind, I pulled a small amount of power to keep from going too fast in the downwind and for noise abatement. (we are talking from 2500 RPM to 2350) The CFII immediately reaches up and firewalls the throttle telling me to keep it full power. So I put in a bunch of trim to keep us level at pattern atltitude. Turning crosswind, the CFII tells me no more than 20 degrees of bank. I asked why and was told that was what the Chief instructor had said. Using only 20 degrees of bank by the time I was able to make my turn crosswind at the speed I was going we were way outside the pattern and if the engine had quit I would never have made the runway.

Coming up on the turn to base we've slowed down enough for me to start lowering first notch of flaps, the airspeed indicator was showing maybe 90 knots or so. I know pretty fast for the downwind but the 4000 hour CFII wants me to keep the speed up. So I put in the first notch of flaps. Got to get this race horse slowed down. The CFII panics and says we never put in flaps above 80 knots. White arc begins at 100 knots and the POH says the same. I point this out to the CFII and I am told the head of maintenance says never above 80 knots because the aircraft is old. True, it's a 1969 Cessna. So I hold off on the flaps, can do the approach without them. We start the turn to base and in the turn we are under 80 knots so I start to lower flaps to 10 degrees. The close to 4000 hour CFII again reaches up quickly to stop me from lower the flaps. Telling me don't lower the flaps in a turn.

At this point I am pretty sure the CFII is nuts. And say either you can fly the aircraft or I can. And take my hands of the controls. We are stable and trimmed so its not like we are going to fall out of the sky. The CFII seems to calm down at this point and says tells me to fly. We've passed the turn to final so I have to do a bit more than 20 degrees to get on center line (might have hit 45 degrees at one point). CFII doesn't say anything until touch down which is smooth as glass. The CFII says out loud "really nice landing!".

As I get ready to add power for go around #2 (three are required for 90 day renewal) the near 4000 hour CFII points out the windsock which shows the wind straight down the runway and it isn't full erect (giggity). I am guessing the winds to be around 10 to 12 knots, AND STRAIGHT DOWN THE RUNWAY! The near 4000 hour CFII is uncomfortable with the winds being that high and pulls the power on me. I turn off the runway at the next available taxi way and the 4000 hour CFII tells me that we have a microburst coming in (it was raining that day off and on but showery) and claims the windsock is a 15-18 MPH (?) sock and it looked like it was fully extended. I didn't see anything that lead me to believe we had a thunderstorm in the area or a microburst. I did see some showery preceip south of the field. But I was happy to get this over with.

Now I am also a CFII, I don't have 4000 hours but I've been flying on a commercial fixed wing rating for 10 or so years. The 4000 hour CFII knows this. Yet I felt like I was a pre solo student. I point this out to the CFII and the 4000 hour CFII said I did great and was happy to sign me off for my 90 day check out.

I flew with the chief pilot a few days later and he said he never said to limit flap use under 80 knots and certainly didn't tell anyone to limit turns to no more than 20 degrees in the pattern. He didn't understand the logic behind that request as you could not make a proper pattern with only 20 degree turns.

I really like this CFII but clearly they were afraid of the aircraft (or me). I can't imagine being a pre solo student having to learn from this individual. If you as a CFII (especially at close to 4000 hours) are still afraid of the aircraft, you need to find something else to do. You're not doing your students any favors. Now I have no idea if this 4000 hour CFII only does that with me but why would they? And how do you get to 4000 hours with fear like that????

The funny thing is I've been in a couple of times since then and the near 4000 hour CFII has avoided me like the plague. Doesn't even acknowledge my greetings.
Click to expand...

We used to call CFI's like this, back in the day when the earth was cooling and dinosaurs roamed the earth, "Hobbs".

I leave it to everyone's fertile imagination why.

Richman
 
Autothrust Blue said:
These tendencies, largely, are designed out of transport category airplanes, and for damned good reasons I might add. None of this is an argument against training the edge of the envelope and abnormal flight attitudes etc., but for the most part, we don't have those problems on airplanes designed for subsonic summer fun.

The system, at least for transport, is designed upon an average pilot on an average day in an average airplane canning an engine at V1 and not hitting the orphanage after doing an average job of the single-engine departure.
Click to expand...

Understand completely -- designed that way for very good reason.

But, again, we can't fall in the trap (as we often do on JC) of confining our discussion to transport category aircraft or 121 operations. The purpose of the discussion is to include datapoints from the other corners of the aviation world, especially in a thread like this which covers a phenomenon that is most decidedly not confined to those aircraft and those ops.
 
Hacker15e said:
Understand completely -- designed that way for very good reason.

But, again, we can't fall in the trap (as we often do on JC) of confining our discussion to transport category aircraft or 121 operations. The purpose of the discussion is to include datapoints from the other corners of the aviation world, especially in a thread like this which covers a phenomenon that is most decidedly not confined to those aircraft and those ops.
Click to expand...
Fair 'nuff. It was more of a "compare and contrast" point.

Hacker15e said:
And people say there's no such thing as a slippery slope...
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If you need to rack it around, say, to not hit that airplane on the parallel final, rack it!

(just don't make it a habit. please...)
 
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