Pilots have hurt themselves..

[DE727UPS]

"Does the ALPA really help pilots get where they need to be?"

I think unions are the biggest thing a pilot group can do to counter the downward pressure managment puts on pay and work rules. With bankruptcy laws and airlines showing huge losses, though, you can't expect much.

 

[Lefty]

I hope you have a pot of gold somewhere if that is the case..

I really hope your not as money hungry as you sound....maybe another profession would suit you better....i would rather fly with someone who loves to fly.....rather than someone who is just looking for a giant paycheck.

Now don't get me wrong everyone needs a paycheck and a big one doesn't hurt but I wouldn't dwell on it.

In theory your idea is sounds nice...but it isn't reality....someone will always do it for less....that is how business works...and the Aviation Industry is a business.

-Skywestseth

 

[Chris_Ford]

"Does the ALPA really help pilots get where they need to be?"

I think unions are the biggest thing a pilot group can do to counter the downward pressure managment puts on pay and work rules. With bankruptcy laws and airlines showing huge losses, though, you can't expect much.

I agree with you, but it has seemed that ALPA doesn't care very much about its own regional pilots. Just an observation.

 

[FlyingNole]

Whatever may be said it comes down to a simple answer, and you don't have to be an airline pilot, or exec.,etc. to answer it.

If you don't take the $18 an hr., someone will.

 

[Texasspilot]

I agree with you, but it has seemed that ALPA doesn't care very much about its own regional pilots. Just an observation.

ALPA probably couldn't care less about regional guys....they know where their money comes from.... mainline.

 

[Aero_Engineer]

Whatever may be said it comes down to a simple answer, and you don't have to be an airline pilot, or exec.,etc. to answer it.

If you don't take the $18 an hr., someone will.

He is right, you all have to just compare the minimums for the majors and the regionals and you will understand why?
If someone can get hired to fly an RJ with 700 TT compared to 3000TT to fly a 737 then obviously the pay rate for the regional pilot will be much lower.
The only regional that I know pays good is Horizon air and that is because usually who gets in stays in for a long time unlike the other regionals where pilots use them as a stepping stone to advance to bigger jets.

 

[NJA_Capt]

I got into this profession for the thrill of flying, not the thrill of the paycheck.

....and THIS is the logic that has caused this mess.

Now these jokers (Regionals) know you will accept welfare wages because "you love to fly." Heck, Gulfstream even has people paying THEM to be an FO in a B1900!!!! How stupid is that?!?!?!

Until enough CFIs (or rich kids) tell them "no thanks, I can make more at Home Depot" it isn't going to change.

 

[CoBuilder]

....and THIS is the logic that has caused this mess.

Now these jokers (Regionals) know you will accept welfare wages because "you love to fly." Heck, Gulfstream even has people paying THEM to be an FO in a B1900!!!! How stupid is that?!?!?!

Until enough CFIs (or rich kids) tell them "no thanks, I can make more at Home Depot" it isn't going to change.

I think some pilots are willing to accept the low wages at the regionals because they think the regionals aren't making much money. A small scale operation will bring less money. They have that mentality of being at the company's mercy thinking the company isn't making much and I won't either. If they do make a good profits, then management will be more than happy to keep it for cash flow purposes. But maybe those pilots aren't aware of company situations. It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you think you're not going to get pay much, then you are willing to accept it. People in general are not risk takers and like to be safe.

 

[tonyw]

I think some pilots are willing to accept the low wages at the regionals because they think the regionals aren't making much money.

What? Where does this come from?

If you take a look at Yahoo Finance, you'll find that the regionals as a whole made $57 million last quarter. On the other hand, the US majors taken together lost money, to the tune of $36 million.

This one ain't gonna fly.

 

[Nick]

I don’t agree with low wages, but keep in mind everyone has to pay their dues before they are B744 Captains or Brain Surgeons. Doctors go through residency for YEARS, pilots go through the regionals. Also- keep in mind that the commuters never paid six figures to FO's either.... and current fare wars supported by the American consumer wont allow it under current business models.

I got into this profession for the thrill of flying, not the thrill of the paycheck.

Persevere...

How long do they have to pay dues? Who says so? Why do they have to? WHERE did this notion even come from?! Fifteen years out of college or five out of the military and becoming furloughed and then having to go to another carrier to start at $18 per hour is asinine. Let's quit the due-paying argument right here, because it only applies to the first few years of any career. Things don't always flow smoothly and people don't always go from FO to CA to mainline FO to CA. It could take a while.


"Also- keep in mind that the commuters never paid six figures to FO's either.... "

Fine. But did those commuters in the 80s and 90s have 90 seat airplanes with jet engines that flew the same routes as mainline jets, or did they often have planes such as Jetstreams and Saabs and Beeches with turboprops. You used the word commuter and not regional, and today's RJs are flying routes that might as well be mainline and in many cases, were mainline a year or three ago. Times are changing.



"and current fare wars supported by the American consumer wont allow it under current business models"

Consumers will never OPPOSE a fare war since they are the beneficiary.

That said, the airlines choose how low to go. A bunch of employees willing to go very, very low is going to ease the fare ware along and not help raise wages, benefits, or working conditions.

As far as business models not allowing it, there appears to be a few airlines that fly RJs that have captains over the 100K mark without even adding in per diem. Granted they are senior and the highest paid but it exists.


No matter how cool it is to fly a jet around it is still a job. Jobs get old fast if you go home not having enough money to live the other side of your life on the off-days. Pilots are highly trained professionals and should be compensated accordingly.

 

[DE727UPS]

Back in the day, a guy was willing to live with low pay the first five years of his career cause there was a good chance it would lead to something better...the prize was a major job. That's the way it's always been since I've paid attention. Unfortunately, the big prize has become rare and harder to find.

The way I see it, the guys at the regionals need to band together to better their situation. The longer guys are faced with working at a regional, the more incentive they have to raise the bar. If your regional is making money your union should be playing hardball. It sucks that the bar is so low that any small gains won't mean much. I guess you gotta start somewhere...

 

[PhotoPilot]

How long do they have to pay dues? Who says so? Why do they have to? WHERE did this notion even come from?!

My sentiments exactly. I was going to stay out of this one because I know how passionate folks get about paying dues around here, but . . .

When I made a post last spring about turning down a 135 cargo job because it would have given me a crappy QOL, I was jumped on for being a fool who didn't want to accept reality and pay my 'dues' in aviation. After that, I interviewed for and turned down 3 other jobs of similar pay scale and QOL but didn't mention it here because I didn't feel like being lectured and chided.

After turning those jobs down and being patient and persistent, I landed what (for me) is a dream job with great pay, an awesome QOL, and fantastic opportunities for advancement. My 'dues' consisted of 13 great months of being a CFI while making good pay.

I don't think that regional pilots are killing the industry and I don't think that they've made the wrong choice by chosing to work where they work. I do, however, get annoyed at being told that there's only ONE way to get anywhere in this industry - by paying your dues. For me, the regionals weren't the right choice, nor was cargo. Staying on the GA side, flying sweet 4 passenger recips, and being involved in work with the FAA and intensive training initiatives is perfect for me. If it isn't perfect for everyone, I have no problem with that . . . but don't gripe at me and tell me that I suck because I don't want to pay my dues and 'accept reality.'

On the other hand, don't gripe at the regional guys because they're working jobs that underpay: they already know it. Afterall, they're the ones cashing the paychecks. We all have reasons for making the choices we make and may not always understand why someone else chooses something different.

Do what's right for you and let other people do the same; there's no one right way to go about things, thank God! If there were, we'd all be screwed.

 

[DE727UPS]

Paying your dues? I think it's really a necessity. The ones that aren't doing it are the 250 hour guys from Gulfstream or FSA who don't have CFI's. Merry Xmas...

 

[PhotoPilot]

Paying your dues? I think it's really a necessity. The ones that aren't doing it are the 250 hour guys from Gulfstream or FSA who don't have CFI's. Merry Xmas...

Just re-read my post and want to clarify: I agree that experience has to be gained and it usually happens to be a low pay scale. In my case, I gained experience (Paid my dues) by teaching. What bothers me is when I'm told that by not taking a regional or cargo job, I won't get anywhere in aviation. I'm moving in the direction I want to move and don't miss the regional opportunity at all. If someone is bothered by the QOL or pay at the regionals, there are other opportunities out there that offer good QOL and higher pay. The catch is that you probably won't find yourself flying for a major any time soon, if at all.

 

[DE727UPS]

"What bothers me is when I'm told that by not taking a regional or cargo job, I won't get anywhere in aviation"

I'd say those are some typical ways to pay your dues. The way you are doing it is rare but if it works for you then....sweet action.

It's the guys that pay for their dues that piss me off.

 

[Texasspilot]

Payin your dues was a valid argument when the regionals were a stepping stone to the majors. Regionals are a career job now and people shouldn't have to pay "dues" their entire life.

 

[Stone Cold]

I think I'll just stay out of this one and watch from the sidelines........

 

[FatBastard]

We gotta pay our dues too.

IMHO, Docs pay thier dues by residency, we pay by flight instructing or a cargo gig. Some, may have thier mins lowered because they already work for a regional, but pay thier dues by working as a ramper. we all do it some way, and what works best for you is yours and yours alone. Just don't pay for you dues by literally paying for your dues, then you really won't go anywhere in aviation. JMHO.

Not that I can say that, but chief pilots really look down on folks who don't have qaulity time.

 

[CFIse]

If you cant beat 'em, join 'em. I respectfully have to disagree. Taking the $18 per hour is the problem. By taking that the airline execs realize that pilots work for dirt and will continue to pay dirt.

And Lord knows we appreciate you sacrificing your aviation career to the betterment of us all - let us know what profession you end up in, because it won't be flying.

It's free market at work, capitalism, supply and demand, it is what it is, people will pay whats needed to get people to work - GIA figured out that was less than zero a while ago.

 

[mpenguin1]

How long do they have to pay dues? Who says so? Why do they have to? WHERE did this notion even come from?!

Everybody has to pay their dues, and yes, just like any other job, it is difficult at the beginning, if that beginning is 1 year, 3 years, 5 years, if you want the job, you stick with it.

I have personally seen pilots from some of the Regionals, busted check rides with the majors, or not even put up for the check rides.

Fifteen years out of college or five out of the military and becoming furloughed and then having to go to another carrier to start at $18 per hour is asinine.

Every path leads to a different goal, what can you do. The way things work out in the US Aviation Industry, when you leave the airline you work for and go to work for, you start at the beginning, again. Working for the airlines is a service related industry, the cheaper the ticket, the cheaper the pay. Sometimes, it does matter what your background, it is what the market is willing to pay.

Let's quit the due-paying argument right here, because it only applies to the first few years of any career. Things don't always flow smoothly and people don't always go from FO to CA to mainline FO to CA. It could take a while.

"Also- keep in mind that the commuters never paid six figures to FO's either.... "

Fine. But did those commuters in the 80s and 90s have 90 seat airplanes with jet engines that flew the same routes as mainline jets, or did they often have planes such as Jetstreams and Saabs and Beeches with turboprops. You used the word commuter and not regional, and today's RJs are flying routes that might as well be mainline and in many cases, were mainline a year or three ago. Times are changing.

Yes, times are changing, more aircraft, more airlines, more pilots, more tickets, this helps to bring down the cost and salaries, you want to see pilot salaries go up, ground the Regionals & their aircraft. Less pilots, less aircraft, salaries will go up.

"and current fare wars supported by the American consumer wont allow it under current business models"

Consumers will never OPPOSE a fare war since they are the beneficiary.

That said, the airlines choose how low to go. A bunch of employees willing to go very, very low is going to ease the fare ware along and not help raise wages, benefits, or working conditions.

The consumer pays for a ticket, if there is a fare war, they may or may not take advantage it, hell, so do all of us on this website. If there are two airlines going to the same exact place, same aircraft, same schedule, same service, the only thing separting them, is price.

People act like there are people out there with picket signs screaming FARE WAR, which of course is not true.