Pilot salaries

Boris Badenov said:
Sure. But if the Boss called you right now, with clear lines already established that he isn't supposed to, would you pick up? If you didn't, would you sleep like a baby? Go about your daily business with a song on your lips and peace in your heart until you felt like calling back?
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I think the hard to understand concept for diehard airline pilots is that us vs. them is not a healthy way of running an operation. Our ops manual has a minimum callout time, with a caveat that the crew may waive it at their discretion. Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn’t. When we get a request for an unscheduled trip it’s in the format of “can we do this” versus “I’m doing this.” I don’t live my life at the beck and call of the bosses, but I also don’t give them the middle finger just because I can.
 
pwttogfk said:
I think the hard to understand concept for diehard airline pilots is that us vs. them is not a healthy way of running an operation.
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We're passing each other, here. My shop may be the most "us vs. them" in the aviation world, but there are rules, and the rules are followed by both sides (for the most part...stuff certainly gets grieved but it's not an epidemic, at least not right now). They make money hand over fist, in spite of the supposedly recalcitrant workforce. And they robo-call me constantly, sometimes six or seven times a day, to go fly. And I hang up, every time. And that's fine. Doesn't go on my Permanent Record, no one cares or even remembers, because I'm just a number, and those are the rules.

When I DO fly, I do it to the absolute best of my ability, and attempt to get the stuff where it's supposed to be in the most expeditious way possible which is also consistent with the standard of safety the company very shrewdly has instituted and not only expects, but requires. Because in the end that is better for their bottom line.

We aren't friends, and until lions lie down with lambs, we aren't going to be friends. But we ARE, essentially, allies. And the vast majority of those on both sides of the line understand that. It works pretty well for everyone involved, and nobody has to get the Feels.
 
Boris Badenov said:
We're passing each other, here. My shop may be the most "us vs. them" in the aviation world, but there are rules, and the rules are followed by both sides (for the most part...stuff certainly gets grieved but it's not an epidemic, at least not right now). They make money hand over fist, in spite of the supposedly recalcitrant workforce. And they robo-call me constantly, sometimes six or seven times a day, to go fly. And I hang up, every time. And that's fine. Doesn't go on my Permanent Record, no one cares or even remembers, because I'm just a number, and those are the rules.

When I DO fly, I do it to the absolute best of my ability, and attempt to get the stuff where it's supposed to be in the most expeditious way possible which is also consistent with the standard of safety the company very shrewdly has instituted and not only expects, but requires. Because in the end that is better for their bottom line.

We aren't friends, and until lions lie down with lambs, we aren't going to be friends. But we ARE, essentially, allies. And the vast majority of those on both sides of the line understand that. It works pretty well for everyone involved, and nobody has to get the Feels.
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It was always an interesting situation with crew scheduling. You'd get JA's and you'd want to tell them, well, I'll do it if this, but not the way you built it, but you really couldn't do that because skeds doesn't work that way. Even though you could come up with an efficient deal for both you and them, it just doesn't work that way. The whole company works on the premise that the worker bees don't know squat and just do what they are told. But the people in charge often don't see the big picture and refuse to hear your possible solution to their problem. Oh well....
 
Boris Badenov said:
Propilot is notoriously low. NBAA would probably give substantially higher numbers.

That said, outside of the unicorn HNWI accounts and maybe a few fortune 100s, you're never going to make as much dough as even a bottom-tier legacy.

You can make an argument that the flying is more fun (it is), the destinations more varied (they are), the accommodations more luxurious (usually true), but if Mammon is your God, you gotta go drive the bus.
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But, but... "I care so much about being an awesome service provider", and "I care soooo much about the quality of my work"... (and I care soooooo much about a company that protests its SMS to the heavens while not accomplishing even basic Mx or hiring even basically competent pilots)....

Tell it to the bank.

i hate being cynical, but in a world of self-serving fumduckery, how else is one supposed to act? Morally? Ethically? Honestly??

Nah, I'll just go to the country club church every Sunday and appease my wicked soul so I can feel reeeeeeal good 'bout my many mortal and venial sins.

 
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DE727UPS said:
Oh well....
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Well said. I'm just getting my feet wet, and you've probably seen far more of the Shenanigans than I ever will, but I'm already 99% convinced that attempting to reason with Scheduling is a fool's errand. I'm happy to just sit here and color as long as the premiums/late arrivals/etc. keep piling up.
 
DE727UPS said:
It was always an interesting situation with crew scheduling. You'd get JA's and you'd want to tell them, well, I'll do it if this, but not the way you built it, but you really couldn't do that because skeds doesn't work that way. Even though you could come up with an efficient deal for both you and them, it just doesn't work that way. The whole company works on the premise that the worker bees don't know squat and just do what they are told. But the people in charge often don't see the big picture and refuse to hear your possible solution to their problem. Oh well....
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That’s one of my surprises at Atlas. If you have something either mutually beneficial or at least doesn’t cost them money they’re willing to at least listen. It’s a nice change from the regionals.
 
Space Monkey said:
But, but... "I care so much about being an awesome service provider", and "I care soooo much about the quality of my work"... (and I care soooooo much about a company that protests its SMS to the heavens while not accomplishing even basic Mx or hiring even basically competent pilots)....

Tell it to the bank.

i hate being cynical, but in a world of self-serving fumduckery, how else is one supposed to act? Morally? Ethically? Honestly??

Nah, I'll just go to the country club church every Sunday and appease my wicked soul so I can feel reeeeeeal good 'bout my many mortal and venial sins.

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Well, to be honest, pilots made some corporate gigs bad. I'm over here explaining to my clients that the shortest runway that I can safely get into and out of under just about any condition is 5000ft (even though we go shorter in many instances) while other guys are doing the circle into ASE.

While I tell my clients that I can't do FLL-VNY-FLL in one day, others are working long haul Europe out and backs. Some are making their making their Cabin Hostess work 32hr stints and telling them it's allowable because they are not technically crew members. We are truly our own worst enemy.
 
KLB said:
Well, to be honest, pilots made some corporate gigs bad. I'm over here explaining to my clients that the shortest runway that I can safely get into and out of under just about any condition is 5000ft (even though we go shorter in many instances) while other guys are doing the circle into ASE.

While I tell my clients that I can't do FLL-VNY-FLL in one day, others are working long haul Europe out and backs. Some are making their making their Cabin Hostess work 32hr stints and telling them it's allowable because they are not technically crew members. We are truly our own worst enemy.
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Oh, absolutely.
I was interviewing for a part 91 challenger 601 gig in Denver several years ago, and the new chief pilot was a good guy that was trying to undo a lot of the damage done by the last guy. Ultimately I ended up turning it down to stay at SkyWest as it wasn’t clear if he would be able to fix all of the carnage.

Some of the major issues that needed to be fixed:
Coming in on your days off to do non-flight dept office work, running errands for the boss in your days off, etc.
 
Boris Badenov said:
Well said. I'm just getting my feet wet, and you've probably seen far more of the Shenanigans than I ever will, but I'm already 99% convinced that attempting to reason with Scheduling is a fool's errand. I'm happy to just sit here and color as long as the premiums/late arrivals/etc. keep piling up.
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If it's something that's within an individual schedulers power, and they are in a good mood, you can sometimes reason with them. They really have very little power and leeway in making decisions or changes. Once they say "hold on, I'll check", forget it. I swear, sometimes they just put you on hold to come back and say "no", and they never checked with anyone. Darren in transitions used to be my go to if I had a question. He got really sick a couple years ago and not sure if he ever came back. He would look at the big picture and see options and do things that made sense. But he very clearly said that it had to be cost neutral to the company or he couldn't touch it.
 
That's great to hear. There was a huge thread in support of him on the B and G after he got sick. I don't remember anyone mentioning he was back but I might have missed it. Tell him hi for me if you ever talk to him again. Seriously, he's the only scheduler I ever had any luck with being reasonable in 31 years. And even he wasn't 100%...haha.
 
Could conceivably be some other Darren, but it seems unlikely, given that he works the same desk you describe. One can grouch about all the things they don't like about a place all day, but one thing I really like here is that, at least on an individual level, everyone seems to be cool and want good things for others.

Now, about that catering...
 
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My current employer is a very small operation. Right now it's basically me and the owner / DO doing all of the flying. So when the phone rings, I answer it, and if I can do it, I'll do it. We're not besties, and I understand his P1-P10 are the company, but he's a reasonable guy who values my contribution and works at least twice as hard as I do. That counts for a lot, especially coming from a shop where waiting for the phone to ring was the (unstated) expectation.

We used to joke on our way back from an early morning Aspen turn that if we saw the charter manager walking out to the plane with a trip sheet in his hand after we parked that we'd both crack open a minibottle and chug it. "Sorry Russ, unable..."

I think I would appreciate a setup like Boris describes at Oops where there are reasonable rules and everyone knows and abides them. That doesn't seem to be a common thing in 135.
 
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