Pilot Pay:(

jtrain609 said:
Dude no doubt! That cockpit was a pain in the butt to get into and out of.



My wife has a 10% 401(k) contribution from her employer. THAT'S what we need.

BTW The reason I said XJT and AWC make more than SKWY has to do with a study that Todd has discussed before. ALPA has run the numbers and XJT came in first, with AWC coming in second in overall pay.
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Compensation structure definitely needs to allow for a 10% 401k match. This is going to be necessary in order not to have people living in poverty in their later years. Yeah, I'll buy it that awc and xjt pay perhaps slightly more than skyw. They are all in the upper crust of the dried poop pile. Doesn't really matter to me anymore, I doubt I can hack it more than 5 years at the regional level, eventually a lot of us will need to cut our losses.
 
Hootie said:
Compensation structure definitely needs to allow for a 10% 401k match. This is going to be necessary in order not to have people living in poverty in their later years. Yeah, I'll buy it that awc and xjt pay perhaps slightly more than skyw. They are all in the upper crust of the dried poop pile. Doesn't really matter to me anymore, I doubt I can hack it more than 5 years at the regional level, eventually a lot of us will need to cut our losses.
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Allow me to provide a tiny bit of advice; don't go to law school. Law school is a kind of hell I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.
 
jtrain609 said:
A second year FO at Pinnacle can pull in $30,000 a year, a second year FO at ExpressJet or Air Wisky can pull in $50,000 a year. If that doesn't show that your contract makes a huge difference in how much you make, I don't know what does.

More so, you broadly say pay at ALL regionals sucks, and that isn't exactly the case. The whole "my regional is better than your regional" debate has merit when you're talking about a $20,000 divergence in pay.



They are



Wait, Republic? Sorry boss, Republic isn't a bottom feeder.



How is a furlough connected to pay rates?



That's fantastic...except for that's exactly the discussion you just entered into, and was the original idea that wheelsup fronted. It could happen if we wanted it to happen.



Again, you're saying this from a 135 operation in Alaska; not every regional is like that.



ALPA national when it gets off its butt.



It's only impossible to fathom if you're only experience is as a pilot in BFE Alaska. There are folks down here that have experience pulling together stuff like this.



I think this is a little over the top.



You made a lot of statements for not knowing what's going on by your admission.



That's another angle that could work, without a doubt; but it's not the only way.
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I agree with what you're saying about contracts, but the $50,000 at XJet is possible wages, minimum guarantee is much less. And minimum guarantee for an FO in a 121 passenger carrying operation should start at no less than $50,000 per year, that's just my take on it. How many more cents is that per passenger per flight? Not much more.

As for republic not being a bottom feeder, I disagree, they're mostly all bottom feeders primarily because they can be. Look at first year pay. You can't get guys to work for that unless you're pulling them in at 2000TT or less or the economy sucks, but again, it is a "my regional is better than your regional" sort of thing, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

As for the next bolded, if that's not the case then why don't they pay more, or treat their people better? Some of them do, yes, but you don't hear much about that. You can make $50,000 a year at XJet your second year, but one, that's not minimum guarantee, that's just a possibility, and two, how many regionals actually have a decent contract for second year pilots? From what I've read, not many.

What's sad about this is that a CapeAir guy is getting more time off, and is making more money his first year than the RJ guy. Or that the Bush pilot is making 2 to 3 times first year pay at some regionals his first year, and flying small airplanes. Personally, I think its ludicrous, and wrong that management can get away with doing this to 121 guys, and I don't know why people continue to trip over themselves to go to work for the regionals for that very reason. The day that the regionals have acceptable first year pay, and acceptable work rules is the day my resume goes out to them, but I get treated better in "BFE Alaska" as you put it, than many many regional pilots, so here I stay.
 
ppragman said:
What's sad about this is that a CapeAir guy is getting more time off, and is making more money his first year than the RJ guy. Or that the Bush pilot is making 2 to 3 times first year pay at some regionals his first year, and flying small airplanes. Personally, I think its ludicrous, and wrong that management can get away with doing this to 121 guys, and I don't know why people continue to trip over themselves to go to work for the regionals for that very reason. The day that the regionals have acceptable first year pay, and acceptable work rules is the day my resume goes out to them, but I get treated better in "BFE Alaska" as you put it, than many many regional pilots, so here I stay.
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It's called paying your dues! Just like the individual business owners of Mona Vie, you got to work your way to the top of the pyramid!
 
From what you've READ. Not from the experience you have. Not from what your friends are doing. Not from where you're worked. From what you've read.

And how much is the guy at Cape Air going to top out at? How much is the guy in the Bush going to top out at?

Here let me put it in perspective for you; if I went back to ExpressJet, I'll make $1.5 million MORE at ExpressJet than I will as an attorney doing public interest work. That's over a career. And if you think every attorney makes big money, you're wrong. Many make $50,000 a year for a few decades and either retire from that job or somehow find their way into high paying job for a few years.
 
jtrain609 said:
From what you've READ. Not from the experience you have. Not from what your friends are doing. Not from where you're worked. From what you've read.

And how much is the guy at Cape Air going to top out at? How much is the guy in the Bush going to top out at?

Here let me put it in perspective for you; if I went back to ExpressJet, I'll make $1.5 million MORE at ExpressJet than I will as an attorney doing public interest work. That's over a career. And if you think every attorney makes big money, you're wrong. Many make $50,000 a year for a few decades and either retire from that job or somehow find their way into high paying job for a few years.
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Valid points, all of them.

As for Bush Rats, it depends very much on where you'll top out. I know that there are Navajo pilots at Frontier, or Bering Air making more than $100,000 per year (met one going into Juneau a few weeks ago). I know that ACE tops out somewhere above $80,000 after about 5 or 6 years, and they're a "bottom feeder" by comparison (still a decent company to work for though). Hageland pilots do real well for themselves if they work there long enough (specifics after the 207 are sketchy though, as all of my buddies are still driving that there). Stuff that's not "bushy," that is to say home every night, usually tops off between $60,000 and $80,000 as a career. If you're willing to spend time out in the sticks working half of the year out there, you can make significantly more money, and provide an invaluable service to people who otherwise would live an entirely subsistence life style.

If you got on at the right company, and stuck it out (and many of them are careers) you'd make a $100,000 a year plus after about 8 to 10 years if you hit the cycle right.
 
You'll make $100,000 at Express, Eagle, Air Wisky, Skywest and a few other regionals in 10 years in the worst case.
 
jtrain609 said:
You'll make $100,000 at Express, Eagle, Air Wisky, Skywest and a few other regionals in 10 years in the worst case.
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Its a wash roughly then, but you make more money starting out in the bush, and you're single pilot at many places, and you get to fly VFR, and IFR, rather than ILS to ILS, and you're 135 as opposed to 121, so you have more leeway in how you operate. Most of the places out west are CASS too, or have some sort of jumpseat agreements so that pilots can commute, and many many many of them do. Strangely, no unions really to speak of in Alaska aviation, and I don't know why. Pretty much just Alaska Airlines is the only one that I can think of.
 
I couldn't tell any difference between 135 and 121 operations. Depending on how your ops specs are written, there can be almost no difference between the two.
 
7th year cap I flew with last month hit 95k last year, although he's kinda a .

I'd take Skywest/Republic over AWAC any day due to job security issues, who cares if it does even pay a little less. Although it wouldn't have for me because I would've upgraded sooner and never down graded. That being said AWAC is a good company although they have been forced to change in the past 5-6 years due to the major airlines "issues" with making money. I hope they can get back in the grove of things but I think the competition has just outgrown them, unfortunately.

IIRC we have 3% employer paid on our 401k with an additional 5% if you contribute so it's around 8% matching. But let's be honest the stock market is a house of cards, I'd rather take the money now!!
 
jtrain609 said:
BTW The reason I said XJT and AWC make more than SKWY has to do with a study that Todd has discussed before. ALPA has run the numbers and XJT came in first, with AWC coming in second in overall pay.
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It's ASA at #2, not Air Whisky. I honestly can't remember where in the stack Air Whisky falls, but it's probably up there.
 
ppragman said:
Second year pay is pretty decent for a regional for both the Bro, and the CRJ, and considering you're looking at a 3-5 year upgrade there.
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Just wanted to clarify, somebody coming on property today will be looking at an 8-10 year upgrade followed by a few years of reserve. In fact in a little over two years we will have five year fo's who have never been off reserve. I would advise you to avoid fully developed seniority lists and seek out a newly forming pyramid somewhere else. Regionals are like stocks, you do not want to be the last one to pile on.
 
cmill said:
There aren't too many things I agree with you on, but that was a little slice of genius. Theres plenty of things that the government regulates, for the exact reason that the free market cant regulate itself in certain aspects.
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Here's an idea. Turn the airlines into utilities. We all agree that air transport is vital to the functioning of the economy, correct? Well, then, why not treat providing that service like we treat providing other essential services?

If nothing else, the shareholders would be better off!
 
tonyw said:
Here's an idea. Turn the airlines into utilities. We all agree that air transport is vital to the functioning of the economy, correct? Well, then, why not treat providing that service like we treat providing other essential services?

If nothing else, the shareholders would be better off!
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That's what I've been saying for years, but everyone thinks I'm a pinko commie. :)
 
ATN_Pilot said:
That's what I've been saying for years, but everyone thinks I'm a pinko commie. :)
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How could anyone say that? Utilities are, for the most part, publicly traded companies. Obviously, that means they're not owned by the government. They are heavily regulated and the government doesn't allow them to make what they consider an excessive return, but the upside of that is that they are guaranteed a certain rate of return on their investments.

If airlines get a chance to do this, they should jump at it. After all, look at all the chapter 11 filings you see every time there is an an economic downturn!
 
tonyw said:
Here's an idea. Turn the airlines into utilities. We all agree that air transport is vital to the functioning of the economy, correct? Well, then, why not treat providing that service like we treat providing other essential services?

If nothing else, the shareholders would be better off!
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That was exactly what Robert Crandall and others said in 1978 to try to stop airline deregulation. Crandall believed deregulation would ruin the industry and that free market principles couldn't be applied to what is essentially a public utility.
 
jtrain609 said:
And how much is the guy at Cape Air going to top out at? How much is the guy in the Bush going to top out at?
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We have normal line pilots in the 402 making $80,000/year. XJT doesn't get that much higher unless you're in the training department.

Sad state of affairs, really. I'd love to get back into 121, but honestly at this point it's a tough decision whether or not I'd even want to take recall. My QOL and pay would diminish greatly going from a 9-passenger piston twin to a 50-passenger jet.
 
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