Pilot Pay:(

[RPJ]

He might not feel comfortable saying, but I can tell you that I work for a similar regional and made:

1st year: $23,495
2nd year: $47,880
3rd year: $47,660 WITH 1)one month of voluntary time off without pay (would've cleared 50K).


We all deserve more, but I know where Wheels is coming from when he says he isn't uncomfortable.

May I ask how many hours a month on average were you flying to make this?

 

[C150J]

May I ask how many hours a month on average were you flying to make this?

I averaged 60 hours of block, which usually equated to 80-90 hours of credit thanks to our rigs/cancellation pay.

 

[RPJ]

Wow, pretty damn good then (relatively)!

 

[C150J]

Not bad for fifty seaters... my main issue is not our pay, but the safety culture at most regional airlines. No thought is put into schedules, and most have set optimizing software to eight hours of flying and 16 hours of duty. Why have AM and PM crews when you can make pilots cover both shifts? Unless something is preventing an airplane from completing a revenue flight, it won't be fixed, be it dirty cockpits/cabins to questionable MELs (under the guise of "non-essential furnishings").

7+ leg days, stretching from 0800-2200, followed by nine hours of scheduled rest, followed by a time shift, is completely unsafe. There is ZERO oversight from our major partners or the FAA (unless is comes to crucifying one pilot and not blaming the system). Shame on them.


Is all this stuff legal? Well, it's just as legal as it is to drive 65MPH down a highway in the middle of a blizzard.

I'm lucky to be at a regional that is TRYING to be progressive, but we're all bogged down in one heck of a culture.

 

[cmill]

You have no idea what you're talking about. You think you've got such a great pedestal from which to throw out your "knowledge". You know as much as any other 2 year FO around here, you've clearly got no idea what you're worth, and you're bringing the rest of us down. I don't want a second job "to make ends meet" because flying is fun. This job is supposed to pay the bills, and then some. If you're satisfied with your rate of pay over at good ol' ASA, then your MEC has already lost the war.

hey, watch it, thats a future fifteen year asa capt. ur talking to.

 

[Trip7]

You have no idea what you're talking about. You think you've got such a great pedestal from which to throw out your "knowledge". You know as much as any other 2 year FO around here, you've clearly got no idea what you're worth, and you're bringing the rest of us down. I don't want a second job "to make ends meet" because flying is fun. This job is supposed to pay the bills, and then some. If you're satisfied with your rate of pay over at good ol' ASA, then your MEC has already lost the war.

Calm yo silly always complaining behind down. I wasnt saying we don't need a payraise, I'm saying most regional pilots aren't broke or subject to Colgan working conditions. Bringing the rest of us down....you really need to find a hobby or something besides going on forums and spouting these silly lines haha. With the time you spend posting nonsense on JC you could easily have started a side business and boosted your pay over 50k. Thats the problem with some of you people. Too much complaining and not enough time thinking outside the box.

hey, watch it, thats a future fifteen year asa capt. ur talking to.

Our COO started as a pilot and has been with Skywest/ASA over 20 years. Want to check his bank account?

 

[3green]

you could easily have started a side business and boosted your pay over 50k. Thats the problem with some of you people. Too much complaining and not enough time thinking outside the box.

Just want to point out that if it is truly a "profession" and people wanted it treated as such it shouldn't require getting a side/second job to make a decent living. Especially when your flying around with people's lives in your hands.

 

[Fins Up]

The same passengers who criticize safety and training of the pilots will not be willing to pay more for their tickets on airplanes with better trained, more experienced pilots.

I like the 1500 hour number as well but I wonder how it will play out in the long run.

Higher mins means more experienced applicants who have invested more time and money and are (probably) not willing to work so cheaply. This means higher wages. This means higher ticket prices. This means less customers willing to pay those prices => less passengers flying => less planes/pilots needed => airlines merge or close doors all together => many, many less flying jobs.

I'm sure that things would normalize eventually but the loss in jobs in this industry would be staggering.

 

[Trip7]

Just want to point out that if it is truly a "profession" and people wanted it treated as such it shouldn't require getting a side/second job to make a decent living. Especially when your flying around with people's lives in your hands.

It shouldn't but that just the way it is right now. If the pay you're making right now is not up to your standard or "decent living" you can either jump on forums and post all day about what it should be or what "you believe you're worth." On the other hand, you can go out and do something about your own personal situation.

Here's an example of someone who is a teacher, a job that the majority of the vast public believes is underpaid, that did not sit around and feel sorry for himself, but made the best of his situation. Guy makes 39k a year with wife and kids and has money in the bank.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2010/02/21/nr.living.on.less.cnn?hpt=C2

For my personal situation 38k amounts to a pretty decent living. I think I'm worth more than 38k. Heck, I think I'm worth over a billion dollars but I'm not depending on an employer to give me that money.

 

[wheelsup]

Folks, these two posts should clearly illustrate pilots living the Colgan way of life are in the minority. Colgan is a very small regional airline when compared with the rest of the industry. Cohen might be an idiot but there is more fact than fiction when he quoted the average regional FO salary.

They may be the minority but that is where the rest of us are headed unfortunately. There is no reason to pay you more than a Pinnacle FO would be paid because you both do the same job safely.

Now, if the lower paid pilots were crashing, were constantly late, were destroying equipment or burning up engines, then you'd have the ability to command more pay (assuming you didn't do those things). However as it stands crashes and accidents happen at all levels of pay among pilot groups, and pay doesn't seem to improve or reduce them.

What's that mean? If we want to improve pay we need to tie all commuters into one contract to prevent low balling.

 

[jtrain609]

They may be the minority but that is where the rest of us are headed unfortunately. There is no reason to pay you more than a Pinnacle FO would be paid because you both do the same job safely.

Now, if the lower paid pilots were crashing, were constantly late, were destroying equipment or burning up engines, then you'd have the ability to command more pay (assuming you didn't do those things). However as it stands crashes and accidents happen at all levels of pay among pilot groups, and pay doesn't seem to improve or reduce them.

What's that mean? If we want to improve pay we need to tie all commuters into one contract to prevent low balling.

There's one problem with that idea.

It's Skywest.

 

[ppragman]

There's one problem with that idea.

It's Skywest.

Skywest pays pretty well when compared to other regionals. Second year pay is pretty decent for a regional for both the Bro, and the CRJ, and considering you're looking at a 3-5 year upgrade there, you can actually make decent money at skywest. Skywest may not be union, but they do pay decent for a regional.

 

[jtrain609]

Skywest pays pretty well when compared to other regionals. Second year pay is pretty decent for a regional for both the Bro, and the CRJ, and considering you're looking at a 3-5 year upgrade there, you can actually make decent money at skywest. Skywest may not be union, but they do pay decent for a regional.

You'll make more money at ExpressJet and Air Wisky.

More importantly, you missed the point of what I said; that if you put all regionals under one CONTRACT, then the one non union company out there will come in and undercut your flying and thus, everybody loses.

 

[wheelsup]

You'll make more money at ExpressJet and Air Wisky.

More importantly, you missed the point of what I said; that if you put all regionals under one CONTRACT, then the one non union company out there will come in and undercut your flying and thus, everybody loses.

That is where the union comes into play. Make that contract so nice that people want to join ALPA, or CALPA, or RJALPA, or whatever it is. As it stands if I was at Skywest I wouldn't want ALPA because they aren't doing anything for me (well we know they are, just look at the lobbying, but that is another story). If first year pay under the commuter contract was $40/hr you can bet they'd vote it in if management didn't raise their pay.

 

[jtrain609]

That is where the union comes into play. Make that contract so nice that people want to join ALPA, or CALPA, or RJALPA, or whatever it is. As it stands if I was at Skywest I wouldn't want ALPA because they aren't doing anything for me (well we know they are, just look at the lobbying, but that is another story). If first year pay under the commuter contract was $40/hr you can bet they'd vote it in if management didn't raise their pay.

See that's just it, is that ALPA IS doing things for them. I just lost my medical for 4 months and I'm on furlough. I called up ALPA AeroMedical and they're Johnny on the spot working with me to get things squared away. They took care of things for me even when I was furloughed! The real benefits of ALPA aren't in the pay rates. The benefits are in everything that comes along with ALPA; legal, AeroMedical, work rules, scope, etc.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Calm yo silly always complaining behind down. I wasnt saying we don't need a payraise, I'm saying most regional pilots aren't broke or subject to Colgan working conditions. Bringing the rest of us down....you really need to find a hobby or something besides going on forums and spouting these silly lines haha. With the time you spend posting nonsense on JC you could easily have started a side business and boosted your pay over 50k. Thats the problem with some of you people. Too much complaining and not enough time thinking outside the box.

:banghead:

 

[ppragman]

You'll make more money at ExpressJet and Air Wisky.

More importantly, you missed the point of what I said; that if you put all regionals under one CONTRACT, then the one non union company out there will come in and undercut your flying and thus, everybody loses.

Provided that's what happens. I don't think it will. Personally, I don't think that pay can be connected to unions at the regional level, just look at how piss poor the wages are at the various regionals, and many of them are unionized. Pay won't go up until demand goes up, or until the unions at the mainline start having the back of the unions at the regional level. But that's just my outside perspective.

If skywest was going to undercut the unionized carriers, then they'd be doing it already, but really, they're not any more than any of the other regionals. Mesa, Colgan, Republic, and others are just by having such low pay for crewmembers. Express Jet pays better than Skywest for sure, but lets be serious, ExpressJet pays a lot better than a lot of union carriers. And XJet still has guys on furlough...

If (and its a big if) all the regional carriers were under the same, or a similar contract, then we might see progress, but frankly, I don't think it could ever ever happen. The regional airlines are too busy trying to stab each other in the back as competition and wouldn't dare sacrifice a single penny of profit towards pilot pay if they could axe the competition. Who is going to be the first set of carriers to sign onto a single contract? How would someone organize such a massive change? Logistically its dammed near impossible to even fathom, and the fact that every one of the regionals is strapped for cash or going through a catharsis of some sort doesn't help.

Let's say that magically, tomorrow morning, all of the carriers were ALPA, then the next morning, there was a brand new acceptable and fair contract completed and ready to distribute to every regional, then, magically, the next morning all of previous contracts expired, or were somehow nullified, and a new one was required. Then a single contract could happen. Otherwise I don't see it as realistic. The problem is that management is too scheisty, and pilots are too willing to throw the next guy under the bus to get ahead, then once they're ahead, won't look back to help the next guy up (there are many exceptions to this, but that is in essence what I see at most levels of aviation).

Now this is where I get to ask a question or two, and hopefully someone will have an answer for me, as I'm unfamiliar with the way things work at this level. That said, I am under the impression that contracts can't just be nullified or changed at a moments notice. So even if we were to try to gradually switch out all of the carriers to a uniform contract, each carrier that puts itself together with this newer better contract puts itself at an economic disadvantage, which other carriers can use against it. By that rationale, it would appear that no carrier would have any reason to ever increase their contractual benefits barring a lack of pilot applicants (which will never happen) thus things will more or less remain the same. Or am I wrong?

It would seem to me, that if the mainline unions had a better bit of oversight in the drafting of the contracts that outsource mainline flying to the regional level, then we would see better contracts. Or perhaps I'm mistaken.

 

[Hootie]

You'll make more money at ExpressJet and Air Wisky.

eh, maybe. Xjt sounds pretty good other than having to bang your head getting into the 145. As for whiskey, Id vote a tie....but the TAFB and show times sound terrible. Im at 4th year Fo pay and I only fly da fiddy, and where Im at they all pay exactly 39 a hour. The tiebreakers are shedules, bonus, 401k. At Skywest the schedules are decent, I got 2400 last year for flying 700 block, our 401k match is like 2% going to 6%ish after ten years (sucks!!). At all three you will eat, but will have to work at walmart in retirement.

 

[jtrain609]

Provided that's what happens. I don't think it will. Personally, I don't think that pay can be connected to unions at the regional level, just look at how piss poor the wages are at the various regionals, and many of them are unionized. Pay won't go up until demand goes up, or until the unions at the mainline start having the back of the unions at the regional level. But that's just my outside perspective.

A second year FO at Pinnacle can pull in $30,000 a year, a second year FO at ExpressJet or Air Wisky can pull in $50,000 a year. If that doesn't show that your contract makes a huge difference in how much you make, I don't know what does.

More so, you broadly say pay at ALL regionals sucks, and that isn't exactly the case. The whole "my regional is better than your regional" debate has merit when you're talking about a $20,000 divergence in pay.

If skywest was going to undercut the unionized carriers, then they'd be doing it already,

They are

but really, they're not any more than any of the other regionals. Mesa, Colgan, Republic,

Wait, Republic? Sorry boss, Republic isn't a bottom feeder.

and others are just by having such low pay for crewmembers. Express Jet pays better than Skywest for sure, but lets be serious, ExpressJet pays a lot better than a lot of union carriers. And XJet still has guys on furlough...

How is a furlough connected to pay rates?

If (and its a big if) all the regional carriers were under the same, or a similar contract, then we might see progress, but frankly, I don't think it could ever ever happen.

That's fantastic...except for that's exactly the discussion you just entered into, and was the original idea that wheelsup fronted. It could happen if we wanted it to happen.

The regional airlines are too busy trying to stab each other in the back as competition and wouldn't dare sacrifice a single penny of profit towards pilot pay if they could axe the competition.

Again, you're saying this from a 135 operation in Alaska; not every regional is like that.

Who is going to be the first set of carriers to sign onto a single contract? How would someone organize such a massive change?

ALPA national when it gets off its butt.

Logistically its dammed near impossible to even fathom, and the fact that every one of the regionals is strapped for cash or going through a catharsis of some sort doesn't help.

It's only impossible to fathom if you're only experience is as a pilot in BFE Alaska. There are folks down here that have experience pulling together stuff like this.

Let's say that magically, tomorrow morning, all of the carriers were ALPA, then the next morning, there was a brand new acceptable and fair contract completed and ready to distribute to every regional, then, magically, the next morning all of previous contracts expired, or were somehow nullified, and a new one was required. Then a single contract could happen. Otherwise I don't see it as realistic.

I think this is a little over the top.

The problem is that management is too scheisty, and pilots are too willing to throw the next guy under the bus to get ahead, then once they're ahead, won't look back to help the next guy up (there are many exceptions to this, but that is in essence what I see at most levels of aviation).

Now this is where I get to ask a question or two, and hopefully someone will have an answer for me, as I'm unfamiliar with the way things work at this level.

You made a lot of statements for not knowing what's going on by your admission.

That said, I am under the impression that contracts can't just be nullified or changed at a moments notice. So even if we were to try to gradually switch out all of the carriers to a uniform contract, each carrier that puts itself together with this newer better contract puts itself at an economic disadvantage, which other carriers can use against it. By that rationale, it would appear that no carrier would have any reason to ever increase their contractual benefits barring a lack of pilot applicants (which will never happen) thus things will more or less remain the same. Or am I wrong?

It would seem to me, that if the mainline unions had a better bit of oversight in the drafting of the contracts that outsource mainline flying to the regional level, then we would see better contracts. Or perhaps I'm mistaken.

That's another angle that could work, without a doubt; but it's not the only way.

 

[jtrain609]

eh, maybe. Xjt sounds pretty good other than having to bang your head getting into the 145.

Dude no doubt! That cockpit was a pain in the butt to get into and out of.

As for whiskey, Id vote a tie....but the TAFB and show times sound terrible. Im at 4th year Fo pay and I only fly da fiddy, and where Im at they all pay exactly 39 a hour. The tiebreakers are shedules, bonus, 401k. At Skywest the schedules are decent, I got 2400 last year for flying 700 block, our 401k match is like 2% going to 6%ish after ten years (sucks!!). At all three you will eat, but will have to work at walmart in retirement.

My wife has a 10% 401(k) contribution from her employer. THAT'S what we need.

BTW The reason I said XJT and AWC make more than SKWY has to do with a study that Todd has discussed before. ALPA has run the numbers and XJT came in first, with AWC coming in second in overall pay.