Pilot of the Enola Gay: Paul Tibbets

[deek]

I give credit to Tibbets for organizing the whole thing, I didn't think he was that involved in it. It's pretty neat when you hear about how hard they had to train to get it all just right.

I agree that the bomb was not a great thing but a necessary thing, like anything in war is. Imagine if we didn't use it then, we would have found a way to use it in the next war, either way it was going to get used and the fact that the world now knows how bad it can be (even though modern a-bombs are 100 times more powerful) M.A.D. has allowed the world to never use them again.

War sucks any way you look at it, but I subscribe to the the Hap Arnold approach to war, Do everything you can do to never go to war, but should you must, do everything you can to end it as quickly as possible.

 

[Hacker15e]

a bomb blast coming up my butt in a few seconds

Very poor word choice here!

 

[A-300F4-622R]

Does your question have to do with why he had to turn that far in that short of time, or about the turn performance of the B-29?

The significance of 159 I'm sure had to do with all the factors involved in planning a bombing attack -- location of anti-air threats, ability to see the target on the ingress, ability for the bomb fall trajectory to hit where they wanted it to hit. On top of that, the egress heading had to take into consideration the safe escape requirements to ensure the airplane and the people survived the effects of the blast.

Depending on the type and size of blast, a typical safe escape maneuver for a nuclear weapon is a turn of more than 90 degress and less than 180 degrees -- it is a balance between the time it takes to turn versus the distance between ground zero and the actual location of the aircraft at detonation (called 'escape distance'). There is a fixed amount of time between the bomb coming off the airplane and the weapon detonating -- obviously a 180-degree turn would generate the most escape distance, but would also take the most time.

Interesting, as the numbers Tibbets mentions works out to about 4 degrees per second of turn -- just slightly more than the standard 2-minute turn. Doesn't seem like that significant of a difference, except you have to add in the time required to roll out and ensure that the airplane is tail-on to the blast. Probably works out to a turn that has to be done in 30-ish seconds, with 5-10 seconds of rolling out and stabilizing before the overpressure wave hit.

What about in your Mud Hen with the B-61 bomb. How does your parachute retarded laydown delayed surface burst profile work? I understand that you have 31 and 81 sec delays available.

 

[Hacker15e]

What about in your Mud Hen with the B-61 bomb. How does your parachute retarded laydown delayed surface burst profile work? I understand that you have 31 and 81 sec delays available.

Are you seriously asking a question like this on an internet forum?

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

Will anyone please show me the MORAL difference between bombing civilian cities with nuclear weapons vs dropping Napalm, WP and HE? More people died in the firebombing raids over Japan than did in both nuclear bombs. That moral threshold had been crossed long before the US was even in the war.

This seems kind of like a rhetorical question but it does have a practical answer:

Nuclear weapons irradiate the land directly and indirectly through irradiated micro-particles that render it dangerous to live in far after the conflict is over, so that means they're morally worse. Not only is it an explosive but it is an area denial weapon.

When you think about it both are so horrible that it is perhaps a marginal difference.

 

[granlistillo]

This seems kind of like a rhetorical question but it does have a practical answer:

Nuclear weapons irradiate the land directly and indirectly through irradiated micro-particles that render it dangerous to live in far after the conflict is over, so that means they're morally worse. Not only is it an explosive but it is an area denial weapon.

When you think about it both are so horrible that it is perhaps a marginal difference.

Neutron bomb is a nuclear weapon.

 

[Low&Slow]

So the innocent civilians who died in those attacks are martyrs for science? I think that is stretching it...pro nuke or not.....

Stretching what? What I said is the truth, I didn't stretch anything.

 

[jwp_145]

'

Greatest generation my ass.

You, sir, are VERY much out of line.

 

[ILSstud]

Stretching what? What I said is the truth, I didn't stretch anything.

The tone in which you mentioned this statement seemed to justify killing so many people. In that same argument Josef Mengele should be applauded for his research considering a lot of what we know about human genetics, hypothermia, heredity, etc is do in part to his twisted experiments.

 

[granlistillo]

The tone in which you mentioned this statement seemed to justify killing so many people. In that same argument Josef Mengele should be applauded for his research considering a lot of what we know about human genetics, hypothermia, heredity, etc is do in part to his twisted experiments.

Adding a comment on a serendipitous positive discovery was arguably non sequitur to his otherwise great post. You're the one stretching here.

 

[A-300F4-622R]

Are you seriously asking a question like this on an internet forum?

Yes. Are you afraid of some OPSEC issues?

 

[granlistillo]

Yes. Are you afraid of some OPSEC issues?

Here's your sign...

 

[Hacker15e]

Yes. Are you afraid of some OPSEC issues?

Gee, ya think?

Shall I list the ways those questions are so completely inappropriate for the internet?

You sound a bit like one of these guys:
http://snltranscripts.jt.org/90/90lgulfwarbriefing.phtml

But, just to entertain your question, here's a shot of me dropping a B61 test assembly up at Tonopah many years ago:

 

[Murdoughnut]

War...nothing more than a numbers game and a matter of side of the line you are on. I think what Murdoughnut is trying to say (forgive me for getting involved, but I 50% agree with his statement) is that the death of a human being whether on the right or wrong side of the line shouldn't be "celebrated." Even my dad who was special ops in the NAVY during Vietnam (3 tours) said he was nothing more than a pawn in a game bigger than he could ever understand. No sense to celebrate the dead (good or bad) war is hell either way you look at it.

Thank you - yes, that is what I'm trying to say. Instead of celebrating what this gentleman did specifically, I instead choose to celebrate his service to our country. While some see the Enola Gay as a symbol of pride and American strength, I see it as a symbol of human failure. Not American failure, for it's not just the act alone that's sad, but also the necessity for it (be it real or perceived). When I see pictures of the Enola Gay it just makes me sad, not proud. Though again, I do not blame this man or his crew. If he didn't pull the trigger, someone else would have.

 

[A-300F4-622R]

Gee, ya think?

Shall I list the ways those questions are so completely inappropriate for the internet?

You sound a bit like one of these guys:
http://snltranscripts.jt.org/90/90lgulfwarbriefing.phtml

But, just to entertain your question, here's a shot of me dropping a B61 test assembly up at Tonopah many years ago:

I understand your reluctance. I was just curious.
That's a cool photo. What was the yield on the bomb and how big was the mushroom cloud? Were you wearing radiation monitors? Did you get any exposure? Did you wear PLZT helmets?

 

[Murdoughnut]

BTW: I did not intend for this to devolve into a nuke vs anti-nuke vs generation discussion. So, for those of you who are making it so, please take the discussion elsewhere.

But that's exactly what you asked for when you posted the comments of a gentleman who advocates nuking those who disagree with us without a second thought ... and then praised those comments. There's nothing wrong with healthy discussion of the matter.

 

[Murdoughnut]

Adding a comment on a serendipitous positive discovery was arguably non sequitur to his otherwise great post. You're the one stretching here.

No, being someone who has taken graduate level courses in research ethics - he's exactly right. If it makes it easier to comprehend, think about the Tuskegee experiments. How can you argue there was any value in the learnings obtained through those methods?

 

[granlistillo]

No, being someone who has taken graduate level courses in research ethics - he's exactly right.

You went to grad school? Sorry, just disregard.

 

[ozone]

But that's exactly what you asked for when you posted the comments of a gentleman who advocates nuking those who disagree with us without a second thought ... and then praised those comments. There's nothing wrong with healthy discussion of the matter.

Uhm, I never praised the comments anywhere in my original post or any other part of MY postings.

My only comment was to specifically ask about the turn-radius issues that were brought up by Oppenheimer and then practiced by the pilot....and no-one answered my question for 2 pages, by the way.

Read before you spew.....

 

[granlistillo]

Please forgive the length, but it's an interesting read. Anyone here have any idea of what it truly means to turn a B-29 around 159 degrees in 40 seconds? Read the interview to know what I am talking about.

I thought it was a rhetorical question.